| STEPHEN MOORE|
GLENN: Stephen Moore's on with us. Stephen writes for the Wall Street Journal. Stephen, did you write today's Windjammers article or is that somebody else?
MOORE: Well, I contributed to it.
GLENN: You contributed? Because you just had an article out last week on the insanity of what is going on with energy, and anybody, anybody who says, "Oh, gee, if we just concentrate on alternative energy, everything would be fine because we're all going to get along." No, we're not. No, we're not.
MOORE: Well, no we're not. And you know there's this now proposal in congress called the Gang of Ten which just lops on $80 billion of subsidies but it doesn't allow any drilling and if we're going to have a sensible energy policy that makes us more independent of OPEC oil, we need to be very serious about drilling and nuclear power and coal and all these things that the left is adamantly against.
GLENN: Yeah, but they're not. Let's go over just a little bit of what you contributed in today's, in today's article on Windjammers. This is the most amazing thing that I have heard. This is the environmentalists, where there is solar and wind power being generated, they need the transmission lines.
GLENN: To get the power to the people. What happens?
MOORE: They don't want the transmission lines. It's like when Ted Kennedy didn't want the wind turbines in his backyard. This is a big problem, folks. I don't want to burst people's bubble, but it turns out, Glenn, that wind and solar power aren't the great green energy sources that the left had said they are. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is that they are incredibly land sensitive. So if you wanted to provide I mean, this is an amazing statistic. If you wanted to provide enough electricity to keep Manhattan lighted up at night, you'd have to convert the entire state of Connecticut into a giant wind turbine farm.
GLENN: Hold on just a second. I'm just thinking of you know, I live there. I'm just thinking of so there would be no people there. Just a wind farm.
MOORE: No, plus there would be none of the endangered species there, either.
GLENN: That would be fantastic. I like that idea. Somehow or another you are saying that's a bad idea.
MOORE: Well, I'll give you another example. People who think solar power is the source, you know, the power source of the future. If you wanted to light up Phoenix, Arizona with sun power, you'd have to have 100 square miles of solar energy paneling to provide enough electricity. These are crazy technologies. They are not good for the environment. They would industrialize the entire landscape of America.
GLENN: Here's the thing. On solar energy, solar energy is I believe on the verge of and when I say a verge, in the next 10 years on the verge of a revolution. MIT is doing some studies where they have found that 15 by 15 foot panels can now actually, they found a way to convert that to make hydrogen to actually run your home on hydrogen. Now they need to find a practical application, you know, somebody that in the business world that says, "Oh, I think I can do something with that" and make it affordable. But they now have the technology to do that. Ray Kurzweil is saying that nanotechnology in five years will make solar energy reasonable, yet we're still talking about five years before the technology arrives and probably 15 to 20 before everybody can have access to it.
MOORE: Well, I'm a little more skeptical on solar energy than you are, Glenn. I mean, I've been I remember the 1970s when people said that, you know, breakthroughs in solar power are going to be, you know, two or three or four years away. Look, I'm pro technology. I'm pro market. Whatever can succeed in the marketplace in the energy industry I'm in favor of. What I'm against is all these subsidies to pick winners and losers.
MOORE: And that's what we're doing in Washington right now.
GLENN: All right. So let me just go through a couple of things here. Duke Energy and American Electric Power announced a billion dollar joint venture to build 240 miles of transmission lines in Indiana.
GLENN: And they can't do it because of all of the red tape until 2014 at the bare minimum. In California there was a protest on the connection of the solar and geothermal fields from Imperial Valley to Los Angeles in Orange County. So that's not happening. Environmental class is lobbying state commissioners to kill another 150 mile link between San Diego and the solar panels because it would jaunt through a state park. It's happening not just in California but it's also happening in Oregon and all over the Dakotas, Carolina, upstate New York, Maine and elsewhere. Your article which I find amazing, garbage collectors in San Francisco may turn into cops.
MOORE: You can't make this stuff up, Glenn. I was in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago. Opened up the San Francisco Chronicle and, you know, San Francisco people believe that they are the most progressive in the country.
GLENN: And they are.
MOORE: They want to have not optional recycling but they want to make it mandatory. They want to have up to $1,000 fines for, you know, throwing the Gatorade bottle in the wrong trash bin. And they are now going to have, as you just said, trash cops that go through people's garbage to make sure they're throwing the newspapers and the pie crusts and the steak bones and all this stuff in the right containers. I mean, this stuff is out of control.
GLENN: But they're saying that they don't want to fine people. They just want to change people's behavior.
MOORE: Well, you know, you can do that if you charge people enough for this. I mean, it's happening all over the country. In Seattle now they've put these tags on people's garbage bins. They call them scarlet letters so that, you know, if people aren't properly recycling, they can be the scourge of the neighborhood.
GLENN: Wait. My hometown of Seattle, you know they got rid of styrofoam cups and plates and plastic knives and forks? Did you know that?
GLENN: I mean, Seattle, what the hell has happened to you? I mean, you know what hang on just a second. I just want to have a conversation with Seattle. I grew up in the Seattle area. I know it. And before I left, my grandmother sat me down and she said, you tell everybody you know, everybody you meet that everybody always says, oh, Seattle I hear is so beautiful. She said to me, you tell everybody that it rains like no place else. She was dead serious. And I said, grandma, it does rain like no place else. And she said, good, then you don't have to lie. Just make sure you emphasize that. And I said, you just don't want people moving up here. And she said, Glenn, all of the people that are too crazy for California are moving up here and they're going to wreck this state. And my grandmother was right!
MOORE: She was right. And, you know, I think if there's one place in the United States that may be more whacko left than San Francisco, it might be Seattle. And your grandmother was right. You know, people move up there because there's no income tax and California has taxes through the wazoo. But then they get up there and they want to
GLENN: They want to turn it into what they had.
GLENN: That's the way when I lived in Phoenix, everybody says, oh, you've got to move to Phoenix because your allergies won't be bad. When I moved down to Phoenix, it wasn't a desert anymore. Everybody was watering. They were taking their plants from up north and they were watering. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you? Now you're going to have allergies. I mean, it's just crazy what people do. Stephen, hang on just a second because I've got to get into the, I've got to get into the Ted Turner thing. Not that I like to just poke Ted Turner every once in a while but I've got to get into the Ted Turner thing with you here in just a sec. Back with Stephen Moore from the Wall Street Journal coming up in just a second and your phone calls. The number's 888 727 BECK, 888 727 BECK.
GLENN: 888 727 BECK, 888 727 BECK. So Stephen Moore who writes for the Wall Street Journal, we're having a conversation about how the environmental Nazis are, you know, making people in seats, they are putting a tag on your trash can which is basically the Scarlet Letter if you haven't recycled your trash properly. They want to charge you a $1,000 fine and have garbage collectors be trash cops, recycle cops. It's craziness what's going on. But you're actually, because of this article, you are actually feeling all kinds of heat, aren't you?
MOORE: Well, yeah. I think a lot of the environmental benefits, and I hate to again burst people's bubbles because, you know, there are some advantages environmentally to recycling, but Glenn, they have been vastly exaggerated. Vastly exaggerated. You know, the ultimate by the way is people who get in their cars, they have got maybe a couple of pounds of recycled goods and then they drive eight miles to go to the recycling center, you know, to dump this stuff off.
GLENN: Give me some stats on why you say it's exaggerated?
MOORE: Well, there's a couple of reasons. One is it takes a lot of energy, you know, to recycle and so
GLENN: Okay. So you're saying let's say because there's thousands and thousands and thousands of Nancy Pelosi books that will never be sold. You're saying that grinding those up back into pulp and make them into another, a successful book like
MOORE: Like the Glenn Beck?
GLENN: Yes. That's a waste of energy? We should just
MOORE: It's not a waste of energy, but the energy, the benefits in terms of, to the environment are de minimis. They are very small.
MOORE: In some cases, by the way, you know, industry does a lot of recycling when it makes economic sense to do that. But there's this kind of religion out there that it's always the right thing to recycle and in many cases it's much better for the environment to just bury the stuff.
GLENN: Like what?
MOORE: Oftentimes newspapers, oftentimes plastics and things like that that will just degrade over time.
MOORE: And one of the points I made in the article is there's this myth out there that America's running out of landfill space which is absolutely nuts. I mean, the one thing we have plenty of room for, it's landfill.
GLENN: Have you ever been to the Dakotas? I mean, no offense North or South Dakota. Although, North Dakota, South Dakota's been talking behind your back.
MOORE: We finally found a use for the Dakotas.
GLENN: I mean, there's a ton of space out there.
MOORE: Well, I made the point in the article which was kind of a fun one is that in Montana our friend Ted Turner owns giant amounts of acreage on his ranches and if we converted the Ted Turner ranch into a landfill, we would have enough space on his, on his ranch alone, Glenn, to contain all of the garbage in America for the next 100 years and he would still have 50,000 acres for his bison and his horses.
GLENN: So wait a minute. Hang on. I'm having a hard time, first of all, getting my arms around Ted Turner being a trash collector or being surrounded by trash. I have a hard time believing that one. For the next 100 years. Huh.
MOORE: Now, I have to confess. He owns a whole heck of a lot of property.
GLENN: Yeah, I believe he's the largest single landowner in America, is he not?
MOORE: He's up there. If not number one, he's in the top three.
GLENN: Yeah, makes me feel good. Because I know what he's going to do. He is going to donate that land to either the United Nations
MOORE: Or the Sierra Club.
GLENN: To the Sierra Club and it will never, ever be allowed to be touched.
MOORE: Let's see if they discover oil on that land.
GLENN: Or until the peasants revolt. So are you getting
MOORE: Oh, my gosh, you would think I would have assaulted people's daughters.
GLENN: Which you haven't.
MOORE: I was in this friend's house in San Francisco and I tossed the Gatorade bottle, the plastic Gatorade bottle into the glass container. Oh, my God. Glenn, you would and this was a friend of mine. You would have thought I had made a pass at his daughter. I mean, it was unbelievable. I mean, he just erupted in rage. And this gets to the point I'm trying to make is this has really become a religion. There's a really fun point I have in the article, by the way. You know they are not calling these recycling centers anymore. You know what the new name for these things are now? Reformation. Reformation centers. Redemption, redemption centers.
GLENN: Redemption centers. Okay, I was going to say I've got something to nail to their door.
MOORE: So one of the points I made is whatever happened to liberals who wanted to separate church and state.
GLENN: Redemption. I can redeem you, with paper or plastic. Stephen, thanks a lot, man, I appreciate it.
MOORE: Thank you, Glenn. Bye.