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GLENN: May I give you the latest from Arlen Specter who I believe is the most transparent person I have ever seen. In a reversal of his longstanding position, Arlen Specter, the Republican turned Democrat from Pennsylvania called now for the repealing of the Defense of Marriage Act which bans federal recognition of same sex marriages. Mr. Specter who became a Democrat in April in acknowledgment that his moderate view severely jeopardized his chances to survive a Republican primary in 2010 why? The Republicans are just as moderate. What's the problem? Oh, no, I'm sorry. He is saying about the voters. He has moved to challenge a primary on, now on the left and he's got some pushback from the Democrat Joe Sestak. Sestak has long championed gay rights issues. Mr. Specter agrees with Mr. Sestak now in calling for the lifting of the don't ask don't tell possibly.
PAT: It's just an evolution of my policy. That's all it is. My policy on gay marriage has evolved. It's somewhat nuanced now. It's sort of an evolution of a nuanced policy.
GLENN: He said on the Senate floor cultural shifts and new laws in some states allowing same sex marriage have occurred since he voted for the marriage act in 1996. So it's not
PAT: I didn't leave the marriage act. The marriage act left me.
STU: He is not saying it's indifference in his opinion. He is saying, what, it's a cultural shift?
GLENN: Shift, yeah.
STU: And what else?
GLENN: And new laws?
STU: Other states have passed new laws, he is switching his opinion?
PAT: It's an evolution.
GLENN: It's an evolution?
PAT: These states are evolving and I'm evolving with them.
GLENN: Are you an evolutionist? Do you believe in evolution?
PAT: That's more nuanced.
GLENN: With a do you mean? We either came from monkeys or we didn't.
PAT: Well, my nuance position on evolution is simply that from time to time my policies evolve. For instance, I didn't leave the Republican Party. The Republican Party left me.
GLENN: No, I'm asking you did we come from monkeys or not.
PAT: I didn't leave the Defense of Marriage Act. The Defense of Marriage Act left me.
GLENN: What I'm asking you is
STU: Don't ask don't tell, did that also?
GLENN: I'm asking about monkeys. Did we come from monkeys?
PAT: I enjoy monkeys. I've been to the zoo. I fought for funding of zoos and bringing animals into the United States in order to be looked at.
GLENN: I think this guy is the most transparent person because you know exactly what he is. We want transparency. We want to know what you believe. We know! He believes nothing.
GLENN: Absolutely nothing.
STU: Whatever helps him that day.
GLENN: He believes in, strongly.
STU: He wakes up that day and decides, hey, you know what's going to help me today is X. And so he does X.
GLENN: But he strongly believes in that.
PAT: Surely you don't have any numbers to back up what you are saying. You are just besmirching my good name.
STU: It's very rarely that you can prove something like this statistically.
PAT: Very rare.
STU: But in this case you are very rare, Arlen.
GLENN: What kind of statistics do we have?
STU: Okay, we have four versions.
GLENN: Hang on just a second. Before we get to this, I just have to go back. This is not about the defense of gay marriage. This is about anything. This is about anything.
PAT: It really is.
GLENN: Does anybody have, like, I don't know, I don't really care? You are either going to stand on the Defense of Marriage Act or gay marriage, you are either pretty solidly, you know, I think it's this or I think it's that.
STU: Yeah, wherever you are, you are probably there for a reason.
PAT: Usually pretty passionate about it.
GLENN: Yeah, you probably and if you are the average person, you might be saying, well, I don't know. But if you had to make these decisions to vote on them, you most likely didn't go, defense of marriage...
STU: The Defense of Marriage Act isn't this sort of like historical thing he's talking about. He was there when it was voted on.
STU: I mean, he was in the Senate. He voted for it in the Senate.
GLENN: It's kind of like, I'm going to send some people to war and kill people. And then the very next day, I think that's wrong. And then the day after that, I should send them back to war to kill people. I mean, what are you talking about?
STU: Now, everybody changes their mind from time to time.
STU: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
GLENN: There is, there is something to be said about evolution of thought.
STU: Yeah, exactly.
GLENN: You do have that. I've had that. Everybody if you haven't, you're dead. But this guy is like, "I don't know. Gay marriage I'm against. Wait a minute. It's good for the polls wait a minute. I am so for it. Wait a minute, the poll I hate that whole gay marriage thing." Just have the courage of your convictions. It's one or the other.
STU: If we were coming to you with just the gay marriage thing, you might say, well, that's one thing.
STU: You would be right.
GLENN: Because you could evolve. On all of these things you could say, you know, I've thought about it an awful lot. But how many of those can you have in one lifetime?
PAT: Well, it's like you said. He's transparent. When he announced his switch from Republican to Democrat, do you remember what he said? It was because he was so far behind in the polls and he wasn't ready. He wasn't... "I'm not ready to step down. I'm not going to have these people decide my..." the voters? You are not going to have the voters decide? "No, I'm not. I'm not going to have them decide.
GLENN: Is that really what he said?
PAT: Yeah, he did.
STU: Yes. I mean, he was up front about it. I mean, he was going to lose to Pat Toomy in the primary.
PAT: He switched. "I'm not going to have these people decide my future."
GLENN: You are right. If I could just put a gun to people's heads and
PAT: I'll switch back and forth as many times as it takes.
GLENN: Maybe his maybe his theory here is if he confuses enough people, they just won't even know. He should just start switching names.
GLENN: I didn't say I was Arlen Specter.
PAT: I'm Obama.
GLENN: (Laughing). Look at me.
PAT: I'm evolved.
GLENN: I'm evolved. I'm Joe Sestak. He should just show up on Joe's first day in office: I'm Joe Sestak.
STU: Great idea.
GLENN: I will not listen to the politics of the past from this man.
PAT: I did not lose. I am going to serve the Sestak term.
STU: Now, there's a winning policy.
GLENN: It is. He's been Joe Sestak his whole life. It's time for him to step down as Joe Sestak and give other people a chance to be Joe Sestak.
PAT: I didn't leave Arlen Specter. Arlen Specter left me.
PAT: So did his votes. Don't they track exactly with
STU: Yeah, let's look back at Arlen Specter 1.0. You can refer to this as Arlen Specter classic.
STU: This is back when we thought what Arlen Specter was, which was a mod
GLENN: A dirt bag?
STU: No, a moderate Republican. That's what we were told he was.
GLENN: See, I thought the original genesis of Arlen Specter was that he was a crusader against corruption.
STU: I don't remember that one.
GLENN: Was he not one of the big guys in the Watergate council?
STU: Was it Watergate wasn't it the Kennedy assassination? Wasn't he on the Kennedy assassination panel?
PAT: He was on the Warren commission, wasn't he?
GLENN: He's been in Washington too long!
STU: He was like the head, he was the guy who wrote the single bullet theory, didn't he, if I remember.
PAT: I think he may have.
GLENN: But I think he was also one of the big guys in the Watergate thing. Of course, I don't know if he was for or against that.
PAT: I signed the treaty of the Spanish American war.
STU: All right. So this is not it's not Arlen Specter 1.0 in his career but let's say recent Arlen Specter, this is Arlen Specter
GLENN: The last 30 years, here's Arlen Specter.
STU: Right. And this is also a lesson on what you get what you have a quote/unquote moderate Republican.
STU: Okay? Because during Arlen Specter 1.0, he voted with the Democrats on contentious votes 58% of the time. So that's what you're getting when you are getting these moderate Republicans. You are getting about 60% of the time they are voting with Democrats.
STU: But things change in a political season, and Pat Toomy jumps into the race. He is a more conservative Republican. So Arlen realizes obviously if he's going to win this primary, he better move right and he better move right fast. So Arlen Specter 2.0 is developed. Arlen Specter 2.0 votes with the Democrats, instead of the 58% he did last time, he now goes from 58 to 16%. So now he needs to be more conservative and he's only voting with Democrats 16% of the time. Well, people aren't apparently buying that. The polls don't change. Pat Toomy still leads by a significant margin.
GLENN: Maybe it was just a rush of bills that he happened to agree with.
STU: I'm sure that's what it was.
GLENN: Maybe that's all it was.
GLENN: Was just a few things that he got in like, I these are the ones I've been waiting to vote on.
STU: Right. So this is one, Pat, that he realizes he is not going to win this primary and he needs to go. And admits it, he needs to go and become a Democrat because that's the only place he has a chance of winning.
GLENN: But he said at the time he's not going to change his views.
STU: No, of course not. Not going to change his views. So he goes back to, now he flips to a Democrat and he's there by himself essentially unchallenged in the primary for the Democrats. And he resumes his 69% voting for Democrats. So he's increased it from Arlen Specter 1.0 and he's increased it vastly from Arlen Specter 2.0, but Arlen Specter 3.0 votes with Democrats about 69% of the time.
PAT: 3.0 is just a slightly nuanced position.
STU: It's almost like 1. it's almost like 1.1.
GLENN: No, 1.1 is usually when you have the point O, those are the ones with dramatic flaws. The point one is, you know I got rid of all these bad ideas; my system will no longer shut down.
STU: Right. All right, so we've got
GLENN: I won't be in the middle of a vote and all of a sudden it just shuts down.
STU: Just freezes. So Arlen Specter 1.0 is 59% with Democrats. Then 2.0, the conservative version, was 16% with the Democrats. 3.0? Back up to 69% with the Democrats. Then Joe Sestak comes in, okay? Now Joe Sestak's a liberal challenging Arlen Specter from the left in the Democratic primary. So he needs to move left. Arlen Specter 4.0 votes with the Democrats 97% of the time.
PAT: That is absolutely incredible.
PAT: That is incredible.
STU: In literally a period of a month from the end of Arlen Specter 2.0 to the beginning of 4.0, he went from voting with Democrats 16% of the time to 97% of the time.
GLENN: How does this guy live with himself? Seriously how do you live with himself, how do you do it?
STU: I don't know. You are just at that point
PAT: That's just playing the political game. You've got no principles at all.
GLENN: Have you seen any kind of poll, is there any chance that the people in Pennsylvania buy this?
STU: Well, he is currently leading in the Democratic primary.
GLENN: You have got to be kidding me!
PAT: He is not ahead of Toomy, is he, in polls?
STU: He believe he is actually losing to Toomy the last poll I saw that they were running against each other.
GLENN: I have to tell you
PAT: If you are a Democrat from Pennsylvania, how do you vote for this guy?