“No one can deny that the Roman Empire fell apart because it lost its borders.” Author Spencer Klavan joins Glenn to draw the parallels between the fall of Rome and what’s happening now in America and the Western world. But if everyone knows what happened to Rome, why are our leaders flooding our countries with immigrants? And is it still possible to correct our course?

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I want to finish up from where we were last hour, on how our country is just being taken apart. Piece by piece.

And they're telling you they're doing it. They're telling you, what the goal is.

But they always deny it. Even though, it's all out in papers. And it's all out on websites. Their websites.

They won't -- they'll always say, that's a conspiracy theorist. But we're now seeing, these conspiracy theory, come true. And it's been bothering me the last couple of days. And, quite honestly, I'm so lazy. I didn't grab Gibbons. And look it up.

But if I remember right, wasn't the -- the decline and fall of the Roman empire?

Didn't it really start to come down. Once they opened the gate to the -- I don't know. The gates to the mongrels. Or the muskrats.

Or the Haitians. Or whoever they let in.

I mean, I know this. Wasn't that the beginning of the end. They let everybody in.

And then they made everybody a Roman citizen. And then Rome didn't. Citizenship must mean anything.

STU: It sounds familiar. I'm no expert on this.

GLENN: That's where I was too.

So I decided to call somebody, who actually knows. Because he's smart.

Spencer Klavan, a books associate editor and author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World.

Spencer, how are you, man?

SPENCER: I'm doing very well, Glenn. Thanks for having me on.

GLENN: Okay. Again, I just have to say, talk town to me a little bit. Not too much. But just a little bit.

Am I right on that? I'm trying to remember, one of the last straws. I thought it was opening up the gates, and making everybody citizens.

SPENCER: Okay. So not only are you right about this, you actually don't even need somebody like gibbon to prove your point.

This is something that basically everybody, even the most liberal scholars of the Roman empire and its history. Nobody can deny, that the Roman empire fell apart. Because it lost its borders.

Its borders were effectively dissolved, by tyrants. And especially by -- I think you're probably thinking of as Capra Calah (phonetic).

GLENN: Yeah.

SPENCER: An edict made everybody a citizen. And this is a guy -- one of the notorious tyrants of history.

Compared during the French revolution to Louis the 16th. Given calls him the common enemy of mankind. So that will tell you a little bit about the sort of people that want to dilute the concept of citizenship.

They always make themselves out to be very magnanimous and generous, and kind.

Whereas, in fact, there's always something in it for them. And that was no different in Rome.

GLENN: So, Spencer, if everybody knows this, what could possibly -- what possibly could be the reason to do this, all across the Western world?

SPENCER: Well, I think like with everything. You have to look for elite interests. In Rome. The problem of citizenship is something they had going back even before the empire, to the days of the republic.

And right from the jump there. When the republic started to fall apart. It was because there wasn't enough land to go around.

The citizens, and those who fought in the army were supposed to get a certain amount of land that they could cultivate as private property. But while they were away at war, the wealthy and the elites, effectively conspired to do an end run around the law. Why?

So that they could have cheap labor, and vast tracks of land.

Terra Cala (phonetic), there are different theories about why he did what he did.

But you don't have to look around too far for reasons why. In fact, there are almost too many reasons why he would have been able to levy taxes on these new citizens. He could have conscripted them into the army.

And all of this came at the expense, and this is important. It came at the expense of the people who were already the Roman citizens. Our word citizen, comes from a Greek word and so does our word city.

So this is a local thing, originally, designed for specific people, who get particular rights, yes.

Things that they can do. Like vote in elections. But also, they get responsibilities. You have to contribute to society. And be committed and devoted to the idea of Rome. The project of Rome.

Once that starts to fall apart, you basically just have the rich and the strong, trying to give out benefits packages, essentially. Goody bags. To whomever they can get on their side. So they can grow their military.

And sustain the military machine. And I think a lot of that, we can see going on, as well, with some of our leaders. Unfortunately.

GLENN: So you're a historian.

You love history. You study history.

How -- how is this time period. Right now. The point where we're at, right now.

Before this election.

How is this going to be looked at, by historians?


SPENCER: It's always hard to write history in the present tense, they say. But if you put a gun to my head. And I had to make a guess. I would say, this is going to be one of those moments, where people look back, and they either say, how could they possibly have let it all go?

What -- what went wrong? What trove them so insane?

And there will be studies written of how we were led up to this point, gradually overtime.

Or -- or we'll -- we'll look back, and we'll say, this was a crisis, like the ones that Rome had faced. Like others had faced in the past.

And we pulled back from the brink.

It's not too late.

Despite the dire situation.

It's not too late to do that.

We're not an edict of territory, just yet. Although, that certainly was the open borders crowd.

And the Kamala Harrises and the Joe Bidens of the world would like.

It's not yet the case. That just anybody under American influence is an American citizen. With all the rights and privileges that that --

GLENN: It's darn close. We're moving in that direction rapidly.

SPENCER: Yeah. You're right about that. So I think we're at a major crossroads with this election.

GLENN: So what -- I mean, now I'm going to ask you to predict, and you feel free to back out. And say, I didn't sign up for this, dude.

What do you see, coming? What does history teach you, that is most likely, coming?

Because I honestly. I can think of a million ways, this falls apart.

SPENCER: Right.

GLENN: I have a hard time finding that very narrow path, especially without God, of where it comes together. And we heal?

SPENCER: I mean, it's really important that you mentioned God, I think, and the Christian God, specifically. Whom the Romans, until later on in their history, did not worship.

Because that is something that makes us distinctive.

And, you know, Glenn, you've asked me this question a couple of times. Are there any examples of people that fall out of these crisis?

And it's hard, because, in fact, when you end the concept of citizenship. When you destroy your borders. You have destroyed, your country, by definition.

So it's not like we're not flirting with the sorts of things, that bring republics, and empires down.

But I will say, that whereas, I can't think of any example from history, of civilization. That wound back the clock.

That undid these problems.

It is possible in history, to correct course.

And move forward, in the world that we live in. In a better direction.

And I think for us, as Americans. And as a nation that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. The key to that, is our belief in the universal creation of man, in the image of God.

Now, that might sound a little ironic. Since I'm talking about closing down our borders.

And taking care of our citizens. And the open borders crowd. Likes to make use of Christian slogans. To pretend that they're loving their neighbors. They're loving everybody.

But we're limited human beings. And the Christian in front of us, is not how we extend every benefits of the whole world. It's not in our power.

The question is, how do we love one another as American citizens. And our superpower. That the Romans did not have, is racial assimilation. If we're able to get a grip on our border

If we dwell on this election. And other elections going forward. Then we can accommodate some of the things that have gone down the pike.

And have a better track record, than any country in history. At course correcting and recalibrating with exactly these types of issues.

But the first thing, we have to understand what we're about.

And that's not the world. And not humanity in general.

But America, and the humans that live here.

GLENN: What book are you writing right now?

SPENCER: I mean, finished a book that's coming out in October. You mentioned this. Light of the mind.

Light of the world. Which I'm really excited for people to read.

It comes out in October.

And this is a story about the history of science, told from a religious perspective.

Because I think people have a sense, that there's just -- no way you can be a smart, rational person, who believes in science, and also believes in God.

And what I'm saying, in this book is. Not only is that wrong. It's also really outdated. And that a sophisticated, modern understanding of where science comes from.

And where it's going. Points us back to the truth.

And the God of the Bible.

So that's the book.

And it will be out in October.

GLENN: Fantastic.

Preorder it now. Light of mine. Light of the world. Do me a favor.

Send it to me. Because I want to have you on. But I want to -- Reddit, you know, before I talk to you so we can have an intelligence conversation on it.

Spencer, thank you so much. Say hi to your dad for me. Spencer Klavan, Andrew Klavan's son. And, boy, if -- if Andrew ever feels like, I don't know if I did a good job as a dad.

Sit and talk to Spencer for a while. It's pretty amazing.