The Mexican government is suing US gun manufacturers for allegedly arming the Mexican drug cartels. But former ATF agent and whistleblower John Dodson tells Glenn that this is a complete lie! Dodson makes the data-driven case that it’s the Mexican government, not the US government or US manufacturers, that’s really responsible for arming the cartels. So, what can President Trump do to stop this? Dodson gives his plan …

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: John Dodson is with us. He's been with us before. He's the whistle-blower on -- on Fast and Furious. He's blown a lot of whistles.

This one, now, he's a former ATF agent. And he's far enough away from things, to where he can legally say everything that he knows. I think, everything he knows.

But right now, the Mexican government is suing our gun makers. I believe this started, and the seeds were planted by the Obama administration, on this one.

But I could be wrong. But they're suing US gun makers. And they're blaming us now. The tariffs are going up.

Why? Because unfair trade.

Let's just have regular trade with each other.

When you charge us, we'll charge you. But in the case of Mexico, it is also mainly about the border, at this point.

You have got to declare those drug cartels, enemies of the state. And terrorist organizations. And you've got to stop them!

If not, we will! But you've got to stop what's happening on our border. What have they done?

They're blaming us for the drug cartel violence.

I'm sorry. They're blaming our gun manufacturers for this. John is here to tell us the whole story.

The author of The Unarmed Truth. Hello, John. How are you?

JOHN: Hey, I'm fine, sir. Thank you so much for having me on.

GLENN: Oh, yeah. I appreciate it. So tell me what's really going on.

JOHN: Well, what's really going on is actually complicated. But the just of it is, the Mexican government is far and away, responsible for arming the cartels.

The data that I have seen. And the way that the eTrace system works. So ATF has eTrace, which is where firearms tracing is conducted. And if I can give you a brief backup on it, if you don't mind --

GLENN: Yeah.

JOHN: So the only way we can successfully trade -- I say we, I mean ATF. I'm retired now. But the only way you can successfully trace a firearm is if it has a US nexus. It was either manufactured here or imported into the US at some point. Either way, it's stamped and manufactured in the US. Or imported into the US by the company that gets them. So to say that all the crime guns successfully traced in Mexico are US-sourced firearms, it's kind of a rigged ball game. Because the only ones we can successfully trace are US firearms anyway. If a firearm was made in the former Soviet bloc or China or --

GLENN: We wouldn't have access to that. We're not tracking that.

JOHN: Exactly. We can't trace that. So it doesn't come back. The numbers are skewed from the very beginning.

Now, put on top of that, of the US-sourced firearms. And this is where it comes into, what's the motive behind it?

Is it ignorance, or is it deception?

So to say that the vast majority of crime guns recovered in Mexico are traced back to US sources. Okay. Again, we can only successfully trace those that are US-sourced anyway.

But you are not discounting those ones that were purchased directly by the Mexican government.

Now, I have worked on the border for the past 12 years of my career.

Especially in firearms trafficking. In Fast and Furious, I was in a firearms trafficking unit. Like, that is all that we were supposed to do.
And if you look at the data, from eTrace, it's -- like it's clear.

It's so clear. And by the numbers. The reports that I ran before I retired, every year, any 12-month period since 2010, until the day that I retired in 2023, whatever 12-month period you want to run, the Mexican government accounts for about 70 to 75 percent of the prime guns recovered in Mexico.

And these are direct purchases by the Mexican government, or government-to-government sales. From the US government to Mexico.

The problem is, those weapons are considered US-sourced. An ATF doesn't delineate, doesn't take those out of the numbers when they speak to Congress. Or when they release the information. They count them as US sourced firearms. So the American civilians firearms market is left holding the bag and blamed for the cartel violence in Mexico.

GLENN: So wait. Wait. Wait.

So Mexico is buying this from us. And I assume that that -- those -- those guns are supposed to go to the Mexican government to fight cartels, et cetera.

Are these guns -- are these guns going into the hands of the cartels?

JOHN: Yes. 100 percent.

And I think on the take is, most of the money that they use to purchase these firearms is provided by the US government.

The Mexican government says, well, we need help fighting the cartels.

So we give them money to purchase equipment and weapons. They buy these weapons directly from manufacturers. And I'll just say coal just as an example. Just because everybody is recommending. They'll buy two boxes of -- you know, error variance from coal. These are military grade weapons.

Two -- one goes to the Mexican military, one is diverted in the black market. Those ones in the black market are recovered in crime scenes, and substantively traced, and then that's counted as a US-sourced firearm.

When they released the data about all the guns in Mexico, they count that as a US-sourced firearm.

GLENN: So do we have the serial numbers to prove that they were purchased by the -- by the Mexican federal government.

JOHN: 100 percent.

GLENN: Oh, my gosh.

JOHN: If you look at the E-Trade data. One of two ways, it will come back. And there are several different ways that this happens. So the Mexican government, the ATF has issued different entities of the Mexican government FFL numbers. They all begin with a Z. It has a Z as a first character. So they can purchase directly from manufacturers. Right?

And so when one of those firearms are traced. The trace comes back and says, this firearm was traced on a foreign government or law enforcement agency. Then the other way of doing is if they fight the government, the government fails.

So the firearms trace comes back and says, quote, the firearm is a US military weapon, end quote.

So those are weapons purchased by the US government. And then sold to the Mexican government, in order to support their effort to see the fight the cartels.

But, in fact, the vast majority of the guns that are being recovered in Mexico. Are stemming from these direct purchases by the Mexican government. And I'm not just -- it's at least 70 percent.

Every year that I ran it. And I've run it religiously, until the day I turned my computer in, and retired. I ran it. And it was 72 percent on that day. And it's always been 70 to 75 percent.

GLENN: So we're talking to John Dodson.

He is a former ATF agent. He was a whistle-blower on Fast and Furious. He's the author of The Unarmed Truth.

And we -- I think you were on the air. And we talked about this, and we talked about how the ATF was targeting and harassing whistle-blowers who were testifying in front of Congress.

And I think you made a slight reference to this.

But you couldn't talk about it. Or wouldn't talk about it. What's ranged?

JOHN: Well, if you remember, there was a different administration at the time.
(laughter)

GLENN: Okay.

JOHN: I was definitely worried about being prosecuted. For describing this information.

GLENN: All right. All right. So who is -- when they were doing this, is this because the Mexican government is the drug cartel?

The Mexican government is afraid of the government cartel?

Who is really afraid of pushing the government to sue our gun manufacturers here.

JOHN: Well, and those questions are what I refer to as echelons above Dodson.

Okay. So best-case scenario, the Mexican government doesn't know.

The current president of Mexico. The former president.

And the one before that, doesn't know.

They only know the data, that the ATF has released, that all these firearms are US-sourced firearms. And, therefore, they blame the US and firearms market. That's the best-case scenario. Then you have to make the argument. Or at least ask the questions of, well, why don't they know the freaking truth?

If they're buying all these guns. They're not getting them all. It's variations of the black market.

Why aren't they afraid of that?

GLENN: Well, you have to ask that of the Ukrainians too. I digress.

JOHN: That's a whole other issue. I can only imagine.

GLENN: Oh, my -- oh, my --

JOHN: So the Mexicans, either they're willfully ignorant. All right?

Or it's entirely corrupt. Either way, but what frustrates me the most, is especially now, during these current negotiations with the Mexican government over these tariffs and things like that.

Every time, you -- you hold them to account for something, the first response is, well, you have to stop the, quote, flow of firearms, end quote. You have to stop it.

And it's so hard. When we're negotiating. When we're negotiating with facts that aren't true. That aren't accurate. Or at least are disguised in a way, where they don't have the true story.

It's not fair to the American government. It's not fair to the American people. And it's not fair to the Mexican people at all.

GLENN: Okay. So then why don't we do this?

Because you can buy guns elsewhere, Mexico. Why don't we do this. If Trump knows this, and I don't know if he see, if Trump knows this, why doesn't he say, you know what, you're right.

We will stop all guns from crossing the border. You can no longer buy American arms. I know that would hurt the arms companies here's in America.

For maybe a year.

JOHN: Right. Right.

GLENN: But then things change, and the truth is out.

And Mexico doesn't want that. Why wouldn't he just say, okay. We'll stop all the guns coming across the border.

Buy your guns elsewhere. For the next 12 months. And let's see what happens.

JOHN: Well, I will be honest with you, because I don't think they know. That's part of the reason, I'm talking to you.

There's no way to tell them. They'll call ATF. And ATF will say, oh, yeah, 80 percent of the firearms are US-sourced firearms, but they don't take into account the direct purchases by the American government, or the government fails.

So whoever is handling negotiations with Mexico. If they would sit down at the table, and say, hey, we need you to work on fentanyl. And border crossings and border security and things like that. Then Mexico will do what they always do. Which will say, well, you have to stop the flow of firearms. Okay. Give me one second.

I just rescinded all the export licenses for your government, to purchase firearms directly. I have revoked the foreign FFLs of ATF, and I have cease and had desisted all government to government sales from the Department of Defense and the State Department there. Instantaneously, I have cut over 70 percent of the crime being supplied in Mexico.

So now, Madam President, it's your turn. What are you going to do? Put up or shut up.

GLENN: That's brilliant. Have you talked to anybody in the administration about this?

JOHN: No, sir. How does anyone talk to the administration?

GLENN: All right. Do me a favor. Give me a white paper on this, and you tell me who it needs to go.

JOHN: Okay. I have been pounding this for years. I have brought this to the attention of my ATF supervisors, as far up the chain as I could go. I even physically handed the printouts, the documents, the data to the highest-ranking DOJ official in Mexico City at the time, and nothing ever happened on it. And, again, this is the previous administration.

GLENN: Well, you don't expect anything from that, but I expect something from this.

So give me the names of who it should go to, and give me the best, sharpest white paper on it. Don't overwhelm with facts. Give me the, you know, executive summary on the front. So it could be understood and explained.

And then give me all the facts after that. I'll have it delivered to the right people. And then I'll -- I'll give them time to read it and digest it, or their people to digest it, and then I'll ask for an answer. What happened here? Why aren't you doing it?

JOHN: I have no problem with that, and I will work on this immediately, this afternoon.

In the meantime, sir. And I want to tell you, I know there are a lot of ATF agents that listen to your show. And people probably in the administration don't have to take my word for it. You can call any ATF agent. Someone in the administration calls the field office. Don't call headquarters. Call the field office. Call any ATF agent that has a trace account. And say, hey, I want you to run a report for me. Log on to e- trace, on the right-hand side, to generate a statistical report. Click on that. It will automatically go to your work code.

Change that default to recovery location. Put in Mexico, and put in any 12-month time period that you want. And you will see. The data is clear on this issue.

All right? The Mexican military is the number one source of supplying crime guns to Mexican cartels, hands down. And I mean, exponentially so. When you see the data, it will -- like, it -- it's -- it's flabbergasting.

GLENN: John, give me the data and get me those -- that white paper on it.

An executive summary. And I will -- I will get it -- I will get it to them. As soon as you give it to me. I will turn it right around, to all the leadership.

GLENN: Thanks, John, I appreciate it.

God bless.

John Dodson.

The unarmed truth.

If you're an ATF agent, if you can do that. You can verify what he's saying. Call us.

I would love to hear from you.

Mexico, is suing us. They're suing all our gun makers here in America for $10 million. No. I don't think so.

It's going to the Supreme Court. I think the Supreme Court will say, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Again, it's the same kind of corrupt mentality, of the last administration.

You know, of not actually addressing the issue. But going after little pet peeves.

And going after our guns. And our rights to guns.