It's not just California that needs to clean up its forests before more devastating fires break out. Orange County Fire Authority Chief Brian Fennessy tells Glenn that the United States Forest Service and the Department of the Interior BOTH need to clear more brush: "I've worked for both the USDA and USDI. Let's face it...we've got an unhealthy landscape out there. We need to start putting beneficial fire on the landscape.” But he warns that these agencies are losing firefighters FAST: “It doesn't matter how many millions or billions of dollars you throw at the problem if you don't have the people there to do the work."
Transcript
Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors
GLENN: As the gods of the copybook headings limp up to explain once more that fire will certainly burn us and water will wet us. They could learn that in California.
We have Brian Fennessy. He is the Orange County California fire chief.
To tell us a little bit about what's going on. And how is Orange County doing, Brian?
Welcome to the program.
BRIAN: Hey, thank you very much. You know, a little bit about the fires, just across from LA. You know, they're not spreading. As they were, I think both are kind of in a stable position. But there's certainly a lot of heat, you know, in those. And on those fires. In the new wind event approximately albeit. Not 80 miles an hour. One hundred-mile-an-hour gusts. Are still very concerning.
Those fires will be wind tested. Here in North Carolina, it's blowing hard. It was up last week. I think we here dodged a bullet.
But we're expecting that for another couple of days. I'm told there might be another Santa Anna wind event forecasted for next week. So we sure can't stand much more.
GLENN: So, Brian, this is totally predictable. Was it not?
BRIAN: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. When I started in 1978. We would usually have a few days notice.
You know, meteorology is not what it is today. We start to get notified about ten days out.
And then confidence builds at seven days.
And then when you're about four days out, we're pretty sure, you know, what's going to expect.
Yes. Forecasting predicting is far better than it's ever been.
GLENN: Right. So what should have been done in those four days before the fire broke out?
BRIAN: Well, I'll tell you what was done. And we have a program called prepositioning. About six years ago, the fire chiefs in the state, got the state of California to fund -- to put money behind this prepositioning meeting. If we go through a matrix, you know, county-by-county, and we meet certain criteria. I mean, there's a number of things. We are approved for prepositioning funding.
Which means, I can bring on additional aircraft, additional bulldozers, engines.
And the state will pay for them. So that not only are all my stations filled and ready to go.
But I might have two or three more strike teams, strike teams five engines. I might have additional helicopters, dispatch staff.
So all of the Southern California counties were approved for prepositioning. So we had definitely extra resources available, should they be needed.
And certainly, they were deployed very, very quickly.
GLENN: But that's Orange County.
BRIAN: No, that's every county -- every county of the state is eligible for it. But each county has to go through this matrix to meet it.
And so I don't know for sure. But I would expect that Santa Barbara county south, were all approved for prepositioning funding.
And, quite frankly, here in Orange County and when I was the fire chief in San Diego city, we didn't wait for prepositioning. If this weather was going to surface, we are going to staff up.
And if we go overbudget, we go overbudget.
Our job is to protect our communities. And the mayor I worked for at the time, understood that.
So it's nice to be reimbursed for it, but that's not a necessity. We are going to staff up, even beyond what the state approves, if we believe we need to do that.
GLENN: Right. Yeah.
So as we're watching this from Texas and all around the country, it seems as though, it was, A, known that it was going to happen. This is routine. You expect the Santa Anna winds, every year.
You expect forest fires.
And brushfires, in California. Every year.
So this was just one of the really bad ones.
Then it seems like incompetence of cutting the funding for the fire agencies. Not really, truly being prepared. And then on top of it, it seems incompetence to a level that is almost criminal.
And then the third part of this, as we see it, as I see it. Is there might be some actors after the main fire started, that are also, you know, setting fires. What they're -- what their motives are, are yet unknown.
There are also some arsonists involved in that.
Do I have that picture right?
VOICE: Partially. And maybe totally. I don't know for sure.
But I will tell you this. I live in -- I grew up in Altadena. That's one of the towns pretty well wiped out.
When you live that close to the foothills. You're used to Santa Anna winds.
You know they're coming, and they can be brutal right there in the foothills. And it's not uncommon for a strong -- we consider strong Santa Anna, forty or 50 mile an hour winds steady, with gusts maybe to 60, 70.
The event that was experienced last week. And you know this, was 60, 70, steady, gusts, 90 to 100. Something like that. We have a hard time dealing with the former.
Something like that. We're trying to manage expectations, as -- we can't stop that fire.
And I think that, you know, many times, you know, the public. Let me put it this way.
If this were a hurricane or a tornado. Firefighters aren't stopping those either.
GLENN: Right. But they do preposition.
You look at Florida. They've got the trucks lined up before that thing comes ashore.
BRIAN: Yep. They're the best. They get disaster preparations in advance. They get that moving. Florida is an amazing model.
And Texas is a good model as well.
But in terms of, I can't speak of LA city. I don't know what they're prepositioned or upstaffed. They could have another thousand engines. And we weren't going to stop this fire.
Now, having said that. Once the winds diminished. And the fire. This is no longer a wild land fire.
This became an urban conflagration.
House to house spread.
The fuel was structures.
And so, you know, once the wind diminished to a point where, you know, firefighters could get in there and start working on the structures.
There were just so many.
I mean, I drove those fires -- I've been doing this since 1978.
I couldn't believe the structures, the businesses, that were burning so far, from the mountain, that it came off of.
I mean, it was even incredible for me. In terms of the water. I think that's being sorted out. I'm probably hearing the same things that you are. The reservoirs may not have been as filled as they needed to be.
Yes. A draw in the system, can cause some decrease in pressure. But I've never heard of anything that -- where there actually wasn't pressure.
I do know. And I've shared this with people.
In 2003, in San Diego, at the time, the largest fire in California history. We lost pressure.
But that was because pump houses. Pump stations had been burned.
And we didn't know they existed. Had we known, we would have protected those pump houses, as much as we protect a house.
To ensure that we have pressure.
GLENN: Right.
BRIAN: So I'm confident in the city of LA, and I'm hearing the governor is ordering an investigation. That's going to get sorted out. That's going to get public.
And, yes, it could be quite embarrassing and life-changing for a few people, involved in whatever decision made by both parties.
GLENN: Good. Good. We have to learn from our lessons. You know, learn lessons from our mistakes.
BRIAN: Totally agree.
GLENN: You are being talked about going into the Department of Interior.
You had not heard that?
BRIAN: Oh! Well, I'm hearing rumblings. People asked if I was interested in perhaps even becoming the new US forest service chief. And I have served with others that should I be approached at some point. I would certainly consider it.
Because, quite frankly, that agency is a mess, when it comes to fire fighting.
GLENN: Yeah.
BRIAN: They -- you know, paying benefits for -- the firefighters are leaving in droves.
They are so underpaid and underbenefited, that they're leaving, you know, to go to work for state and local government agencies, like mine.
And like L.A. Counties. And this isn't anything new.
You know, I used to work for them, for 13 years. Both the USDA foresters, and the Department of Interior. BLM. And I left as a crew superintendent. And I ran crews. And back then, you know, we were significantly underpaid.
I left the municipal department in 1990. Went to San Diego, because of it. And it's gotten worse.
And it's not managed or organized like a fire department. And if they're going to be in the fire business, you know, they need to be organized and led like a fire department.
Yes, there are resource agency. And, yes, they have things beyond fire, but if you look at the forest service budget, primarily now, it's fire being funded.
GLENN: Sure.
BRIAN: And they definitely need some help in their firefighters. Quite frankly, Glenn, they will be without a fire department very, very soon.
GLENN: Jeez. I have to tell you, it was the national forest service that helped save my neighbor's ranch and probably mine. If we would have had high winds, it would have been over. But the local fire came out. And immediately, the forest service had already positioned.
Because they looked at my canyon and went. This is dry. This is just a disaster waiting to happen.
And they were ready for it.
And they saved it. They did a great job there.
BRIAN: They have amazing firefighters.
GLENN: Yeah. They do.
BRIAN: Spent 13 years in a hotshot group.
I know the business. And I know the people that are out there now. Their firefighters are amazing. Their smoke jumpers. Their hotshots. Their engine cruiser.
Unfortunately, you know, again, they're organized in such a way, that nationally.
They don't -- it would take too long to speak.
But it's just sad to see.
I mean, here in California, I'm told that they're -- we're only able to staff the stations at 60 percent. In my own county. I have three forest service stations.
And they can only staff one of those stations.
Two on occasion. Eight to ten all summer.
We had a fire. We had a fire.
The airport fire, earlier this summer. That burned 100 homes.
And the station closest to that fire was not staffed
And so, you know, I made Congress aware.
And others aware.
And right now, I don't think the forest service is happy with me.
Because I'm being very public about things they should be very public about.
GLENN: So would it be the forest service or the department of interior, that would be responsible for getting under brush cleared?
MIKHAIL: Well, I think it's both. I worked for both the USDA and the USDI.
And let's face it. At least out in the west, the firefighters for decades did such a great job, suppressing fires quickly. That it caused this growth.
And we had an unhealthy landscape out there. And we need to have beneficial fire back on the landscape.
Here's another thing, Glenn. The same firefighters that were losing, those are the people that were going to do the work.
GLENN: I know.
BRIAN: So if you don't have the workforce to do the work, that needs to be done. How will you get it done? It doesn't matter how many millions or billions of dollars you throw at the problem, if you don't have the people, there to do the work.
But, yes. I mean, we need to do something about this unhealthy -- and people are working hard at it.
Certainly, Cal fires are showing amazing, incredible success with it. But you're years behind them.
GLENN: Oh, I know.
BRIAN: This is decades of not treating the fuels and the landscape. And it's going to be decades to fix it.
But we've got to do something. And we have to have a workforce to be able to do it. And like I say, if asked -- and I haven't been asked by anybody officially.
Jut informally. People have suggested and asked, is that something I would consider?
And absolutely.
And, you know, certainly, pay is less of an issue. It would be a pay cut for me. But it's not about that.
It's about -- it's about, you know, what we as firefighters, you know, have sworn to do, and we need to fix that organization.
GLENN: Quickly. Quickly. Can I ask you, am I up against a network break? Can I just ask you about the safety inspections about the Oregon fire trucks and everything.
That is not to make sure of the missions.
That's to make sure that we could function, correct?
Which seems insane too, but go ahead.
GLENN: You know, I'm unaware of what you're talking about.
I know we do expect. Not we. But the state or the feds will inspect, you know, engines or what not. When they arrive. And then before they leave to make sure they're safe.
So I'm not familiar at all, with the situation you're talking about.
GLENN: All right.
Brian, thank you so much.
I hope you're called up. Because we need to take all of our agencies.
And especially all of our services that are protecting us.
Seriously again, we haven't for a long time.
Brian, thank you so much.
BRIAN: Yep. We need change. So thank you.
GLENN: Yep. Brian Fennessy, orange County Fire Chief. All right
