5 years after a fire ravaged Notre Dame cathedral in France and destroyed its historic spire, the cathedral has been repaired and reopened. But did secular artists and politicians destroy some of the building's historical architecture and replace it with modern and anti-Christian designs? Glenn wanted to test the rumors, so he invited architect Duncan Stroik to reveal the truth. Thankfully, Stroik makes the case that Notre Dame's legendary architectural style was not abandoned, and it was not turned into a secular "Temple of Reason." And although the secular “elites and the architects” changed some minor things, he argues that 98% of Notre Dame’s gothic Christian style was maintained.
Transcript
Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors
GLENN: So last weekend, everybody was in -- well, everybody who is anybody, of course, I wasn't there. You weren't there.
Nobody I know was there. But all of the leaders of the world were in France for the reopening of the cathedral of Notre Dame.
And it's supposed to be marvelous. Wonderful. And, you know, way ahead of schedule.
Et cetera.
But I heard at the beginning, that they were going to make this kind of into a temple of reason again.
And kind of finish what the French Revolution started.
And they -- they didn't -- they restored part of it. But there was a big argument of, do we go modern?
Or do we put the gothic back in?
And I hate this. I absolutely -- no problem against -- I have no problem with modern architecture.
But there is -- you know, Jefferson said, if you want your civilization to survive even beyond you, you must embed your principles in your architecture.
Okay? Greece, we get it, because of their architecture, a lot of it.
The medieval times, we get it, because of the architecture. And maybe, it's time for all of us to go modern because so much of it makes no sense.
That you're like, well, that's a sign of our times.
Duncan Stroik, he's an architect.
And I wanted him on to talk about what -- what did they do, to Notre Dame in the end?
Duncan, welcome to the program.
DUNCAN: It's great to be here, Glenn. I have really enjoyed your recent programs, especially with the great times of emphasis on the nativity.
GLENN: Oh, well, thank you very much.
So Notre Dame, the last time -- that I know of. That it was really desecrated and almost destroyed. Was during the French Revolution. And they wanted to make it a temple of reason.
And they happen I heard they were going to do this again, and it was going to be, you know, the earth.
And all of this crap.
Did any of that happen?
And what changes did they make, to the cathedral.
DUNCAN: That's a great point. I agree with you.
That our great cathedrals, especially in the gothic period, have had three enemies.
Fire, vandals. And iconoclasts.
And poor Notre Dame has had all of those.
And the fire was devastating. But what makes it even more painful.
Is that after the fire did its work.
That the iconoclasts came in. And wanted to vandalize.
STU: And was it -- I mean, because I know there was this big panel put together, and everything else.
Was there anybody that was really -- that actually in France, believed in God.
That was on the -- that was on the architectural board?
DUNCAN: I think there is, but they're not supposed to admit to it. There's a wonderful interview, with Philippe Villeneuve, who was the head architect and who really fought to restore it, the way it was, especially the spire, the 19th century spire. And I give him the major credit for the restoration -- preventing the vandals and the iconoclasts from doing their work. But Philippe never said anything.
And I talked to him in person a couple of times. He never said anything about God or faith.
But there's a recent interview with him.
And he admits, that he has faith.
That was what kept his going, during these last six years.
And also that the mother of God helped him immensely, in rebuilding this little church.
GLENN: I can't imagine what it was like being a God person, rebuilding the most cathedral in the world. And not be able to say, hey. You know, there's some God stuff here in this gothic architecture.
We may not want to -- we may not want to lose.
So what --
GLENN: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
So it's so amazing. Macron, the president.
Originally, he wanted to have a competition to redo the outside of it. And something, 21st century, something of our time.
And the elites and the architects were, you know, excited, you know, greedy little animals, wanting to eat up this beautiful building.
And fortunately, the people of France fought that. But he did not give up. Every step of the way, he says, well, could we have a competition to redo the stained glass?
Could we have a competition to redo the side chapels?
Could we -- you know, anything he could get to get the contemporary, and unfortunately, for him. Not for him. But for him, the contemporary means the secular.
GLENN: So what is massively different when you go there now?
DUNCAN: I think Philippe Villeneuve got, 80, 90 percent of it. I mean, he really succeeded.
They rebuilt the -- exactly the way it was.
With medieval axes. They rebuilt the spire, way it was in 1860, with handmade wood joinery. They redid the lead roof, which is very handmade, which is very phenomenal. They redid all the stone work. The five huge openings in the ceiling, that had been destroyed.
They restored and cleaned some of the side chapels. And the paintings with just our -- now they're beautiful.
GLENN: Oh, yeah.
DUNCAN: So he got 98 percent of it.
Macron got very little. The elite art world that doesn't go to church.
Doesn't believe in church. That is very influential.
They got very little. Unfortunately, the archbishop of -- or at least aesthetically in league with Macron.
So some of the things that he spent money on, are contemporary, and most people won't even give them a second thought. Because they are so out of touch with the rest of the building.
GLENN: That's actually good news. Because I thought a lot more had been done that was bad. So this is really good to hear.
DUNCAN: It is.
It's a great story. It really is. I'm very thrilled. These little minor, interior decorating things, that look like they're ephemeral, and you can get rid of them next year. It really is a triumph.
GLENN: So you're a professor of architecture at the University of Notre Dame.
And I want to ask you, so much of our architecture is just meaningless.
And I'm not against -- I'm not against modern architecture.
You know, some of it is interesting. Only because of what we can now do.
But it's -- it doesn't really even speak to anything, a century, even a century from now, I don't think.
But I was reading that there is this new AI-driven machinery. That can now re-carve from solid marble, in a fraction of the time, and not even close to the cost.
You know, that -- you could rebuild all of the great statues, and go back to even a gothic kind of architecture.
And a fraction of the cost. And the time. But I -- you know, I kind of think. When you see David.
I have to tell you, I went to Florence. And my wife and I stood in the square.
I didn't know that the one in the square was the fake.
And we were standing in the square, and I went, huh. Well, I've seen that before.
In all different sizes. And it wasn't that impressive.
And then I went into the museum, where the original is. And I cannot tell you what the difference is.
But that one is alive!
The other one is not!
VOICE: Yes.
GLENN: What is the difference? And will -- you know, by getting rid of handmade things, don't you think that just changes absolutely everything?
DUNCAN: Totally. Totally. And especially when it comes to art, with sculpture, with figures, with floral things. The hand is where it's at. And I do -- we use modern technology to cut our marble and our limestone. But the thing that gets me so excited is to see that guy with his hands actually cutting into the stone. And making -- no question with sculpture. I believe totally with sculpture, that is the key.
Yes. David is a great example.
Because there's a couple of great, great copies in Florence. And the that one we're all moved by is the one by that Michelangelo guy.
GLENN: And they look identical.
DUNCAN: Yes, yes. Totally.
And there were great -- they were very good sculptors who did it, and they were copying it as closely as they could.
There's something beautiful about what happened. I'm with you.
And they did that as much as they could in Notre Dame, in this new restoration. And I think we want to -- and young people were involved in it. That's also what is so exciting. Young people today wanted to do things with their hands.
Some people do, other people want to do video games.
But I think there's a good future for a lot of this.
GLENN: Yeah, I -- I think the more we get into AI. There's going to be a real problem of dislocation of people and artists and everything else.
That we're going to have to figure out soon. But once we get past that. It's kind of like, it's kind of like when clothing went to machine-made.
At first, everybody wanted it made by machine.
Now, if it's handmade, holy cow, is it different.
You know, even from -- I was just talking to somebody about -- you know, everybody buys ripped jeans now.
We were embarrassed when I was a kid.
Because our moms would patch them. Now you'll pay $150 extra, if they're patched by a machine.
But we're trying to buy that authenticity. That, yeah. I wore these out.
Even though we didn't. You know what I mean?
DUNCAN: Yes. Yes. And one of the things that really amazed me, at the roof of Notre Dame, which took about 1500 trees.
Some 80 feet tall. That they had to use from the old state forests for the great buildings.
To make this roof.
Hundreds -- 1,500 trees.
And most of them were cut by hand, using axes.
1500 trees.
They had 60 men working for three or four years.
Cutting these trees. And then forming them into two square timbers. And then joining them with dovetails.
And it was all handmade.
GLENN: How did they get this done?
I mean, the National Cathedral in Washington, DC, took forever. How did they do this so fast?
DUNCAN: Well, I think it was national pride. And it shows you that the French still have it in them, to restore. But I also believe build things of that quality of the Middle Ages. They still have it. They have the people that love it.
And even though the elites and the leadership. You know, the political leaders, think it's valid. But regular people and the craftsmen, they know this was a high point.
This is a golden age. And that we could do it again today.
So I'm very excited about the French.
I want to export the French, these master craftsmen to other countries.
Especially to the US. Where we can afford it.
And get us to train us. And lead us to do it in America.
On a smaller scale. Whatever. I want to do that.
GLENN: Duncan, thank you.
If you're ever in Dallas, please let me know. I would love to have lunch with you some time, you're fascinating. Thank you so much.
DUNCAN: Thank you for what you do, Ben -- Glenn. Thank you for speaking up.
GLENN: You bet. You got it. Duncan Stroik, he's an architect, and the professor of architecture at the University of Notre Dame.
