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Is Notre Dame Cathedral Now a "Temple of Reason"?!

5 years after a fire ravaged Notre Dame cathedral in France and destroyed its historic spire, the cathedral has been repaired and reopened. But did secular artists and politicians destroy some of the building's historical architecture and replace it with modern and anti-Christian designs? Glenn wanted to test the rumors, so he invited architect Duncan Stroik to reveal the truth. Thankfully, Stroik makes the case that Notre Dame's legendary architectural style was not abandoned, and it was not turned into a secular "Temple of Reason." And although the secular “elites and the architects” changed some minor things, he argues that 98% of Notre Dame’s gothic Christian style was maintained.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: So last weekend, everybody was in -- well, everybody who is anybody, of course, I wasn't there. You weren't there.

Nobody I know was there. But all of the leaders of the world were in France for the reopening of the cathedral of Notre Dame.

And it's supposed to be marvelous. Wonderful. And, you know, way ahead of schedule.

Et cetera.

But I heard at the beginning, that they were going to make this kind of into a temple of reason again.

And kind of finish what the French Revolution started.

And they -- they didn't -- they restored part of it. But there was a big argument of, do we go modern?

Or do we put the gothic back in?

And I hate this. I absolutely -- no problem against -- I have no problem with modern architecture.

But there is -- you know, Jefferson said, if you want your civilization to survive even beyond you, you must embed your principles in your architecture.

Okay? Greece, we get it, because of their architecture, a lot of it.

The medieval times, we get it, because of the architecture. And maybe, it's time for all of us to go modern because so much of it makes no sense.

That you're like, well, that's a sign of our times.

Duncan Stroik, he's an architect.

And I wanted him on to talk about what -- what did they do, to Notre Dame in the end?

Duncan, welcome to the program.

DUNCAN: It's great to be here, Glenn. I have really enjoyed your recent programs, especially with the great times of emphasis on the nativity.

GLENN: Oh, well, thank you very much.

So Notre Dame, the last time -- that I know of. That it was really desecrated and almost destroyed. Was during the French Revolution. And they wanted to make it a temple of reason.

And they happen I heard they were going to do this again, and it was going to be, you know, the earth.

And all of this crap.

Did any of that happen?

And what changes did they make, to the cathedral.

DUNCAN: That's a great point. I agree with you.

That our great cathedrals, especially in the gothic period, have had three enemies.

Fire, vandals. And iconoclasts.

And poor Notre Dame has had all of those.

And the fire was devastating. But what makes it even more painful.

Is that after the fire did its work.

That the iconoclasts came in. And wanted to vandalize.

STU: And was it -- I mean, because I know there was this big panel put together, and everything else.

Was there anybody that was really -- that actually in France, believed in God.

That was on the -- that was on the architectural board?

DUNCAN: I think there is, but they're not supposed to admit to it. There's a wonderful interview, with Philippe Villeneuve, who was the head architect and who really fought to restore it, the way it was, especially the spire, the 19th century spire. And I give him the major credit for the restoration -- preventing the vandals and the iconoclasts from doing their work. But Philippe never said anything.

And I talked to him in person a couple of times. He never said anything about God or faith.

But there's a recent interview with him.

And he admits, that he has faith.

That was what kept his going, during these last six years.

And also that the mother of God helped him immensely, in rebuilding this little church.

GLENN: I can't imagine what it was like being a God person, rebuilding the most cathedral in the world. And not be able to say, hey. You know, there's some God stuff here in this gothic architecture.

We may not want to -- we may not want to lose.

So what --

GLENN: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

So it's so amazing. Macron, the president.
Originally, he wanted to have a competition to redo the outside of it. And something, 21st century, something of our time.

And the elites and the architects were, you know, excited, you know, greedy little animals, wanting to eat up this beautiful building.

And fortunately, the people of France fought that. But he did not give up. Every step of the way, he says, well, could we have a competition to redo the stained glass?

Could we have a competition to redo the side chapels?

Could we -- you know, anything he could get to get the contemporary, and unfortunately, for him. Not for him. But for him, the contemporary means the secular.

GLENN: So what is massively different when you go there now?

DUNCAN: I think Philippe Villeneuve got, 80, 90 percent of it. I mean, he really succeeded.

They rebuilt the -- exactly the way it was.

With medieval axes. They rebuilt the spire, way it was in 1860, with handmade wood joinery. They redid the lead roof, which is very handmade, which is very phenomenal. They redid all the stone work. The five huge openings in the ceiling, that had been destroyed.

They restored and cleaned some of the side chapels. And the paintings with just our -- now they're beautiful.

GLENN: Oh, yeah.

DUNCAN: So he got 98 percent of it.

Macron got very little. The elite art world that doesn't go to church.

Doesn't believe in church. That is very influential.

They got very little. Unfortunately, the archbishop of -- or at least aesthetically in league with Macron.

So some of the things that he spent money on, are contemporary, and most people won't even give them a second thought. Because they are so out of touch with the rest of the building.

GLENN: That's actually good news. Because I thought a lot more had been done that was bad. So this is really good to hear.

DUNCAN: It is.

It's a great story. It really is. I'm very thrilled. These little minor, interior decorating things, that look like they're ephemeral, and you can get rid of them next year. It really is a triumph.

GLENN: So you're a professor of architecture at the University of Notre Dame.

And I want to ask you, so much of our architecture is just meaningless.

And I'm not against -- I'm not against modern architecture.

You know, some of it is interesting. Only because of what we can now do.

But it's -- it doesn't really even speak to anything, a century, even a century from now, I don't think.

But I was reading that there is this new AI-driven machinery. That can now re-carve from solid marble, in a fraction of the time, and not even close to the cost.

You know, that -- you could rebuild all of the great statues, and go back to even a gothic kind of architecture.
And a fraction of the cost. And the time. But I -- you know, I kind of think. When you see David.

I have to tell you, I went to Florence. And my wife and I stood in the square.

I didn't know that the one in the square was the fake.

And we were standing in the square, and I went, huh. Well, I've seen that before.

In all different sizes. And it wasn't that impressive.

And then I went into the museum, where the original is. And I cannot tell you what the difference is.

But that one is alive!

The other one is not!

VOICE: Yes.

GLENN: What is the difference? And will -- you know, by getting rid of handmade things, don't you think that just changes absolutely everything?

DUNCAN: Totally. Totally. And especially when it comes to art, with sculpture, with figures, with floral things. The hand is where it's at. And I do -- we use modern technology to cut our marble and our limestone. But the thing that gets me so excited is to see that guy with his hands actually cutting into the stone. And making -- no question with sculpture. I believe totally with sculpture, that is the key.

Yes. David is a great example.

Because there's a couple of great, great copies in Florence. And the that one we're all moved by is the one by that Michelangelo guy.

GLENN: And they look identical.

DUNCAN: Yes, yes. Totally.

And there were great -- they were very good sculptors who did it, and they were copying it as closely as they could.

There's something beautiful about what happened. I'm with you.

And they did that as much as they could in Notre Dame, in this new restoration. And I think we want to -- and young people were involved in it. That's also what is so exciting. Young people today wanted to do things with their hands.

Some people do, other people want to do video games.

But I think there's a good future for a lot of this.

GLENN: Yeah, I -- I think the more we get into AI. There's going to be a real problem of dislocation of people and artists and everything else.

That we're going to have to figure out soon. But once we get past that. It's kind of like, it's kind of like when clothing went to machine-made.

At first, everybody wanted it made by machine.

Now, if it's handmade, holy cow, is it different.

You know, even from -- I was just talking to somebody about -- you know, everybody buys ripped jeans now.

We were embarrassed when I was a kid.

Because our moms would patch them. Now you'll pay $150 extra, if they're patched by a machine.

But we're trying to buy that authenticity. That, yeah. I wore these out.

Even though we didn't. You know what I mean?

DUNCAN: Yes. Yes. And one of the things that really amazed me, at the roof of Notre Dame, which took about 1500 trees.

Some 80 feet tall. That they had to use from the old state forests for the great buildings.

To make this roof.

Hundreds -- 1,500 trees.

And most of them were cut by hand, using axes.

1500 trees.

They had 60 men working for three or four years.

Cutting these trees. And then forming them into two square timbers. And then joining them with dovetails.

And it was all handmade.

GLENN: How did they get this done?

I mean, the National Cathedral in Washington, DC, took forever. How did they do this so fast?

DUNCAN: Well, I think it was national pride. And it shows you that the French still have it in them, to restore. But I also believe build things of that quality of the Middle Ages. They still have it. They have the people that love it.

And even though the elites and the leadership. You know, the political leaders, think it's valid. But regular people and the craftsmen, they know this was a high point.

This is a golden age. And that we could do it again today.

So I'm very excited about the French.

I want to export the French, these master craftsmen to other countries.

Especially to the US. Where we can afford it.

And get us to train us. And lead us to do it in America.

On a smaller scale. Whatever. I want to do that.

GLENN: Duncan, thank you.

If you're ever in Dallas, please let me know. I would love to have lunch with you some time, you're fascinating. Thank you so much.

DUNCAN: Thank you for what you do, Ben -- Glenn. Thank you for speaking up.

GLENN: You bet. You got it. Duncan Stroik, he's an architect, and the professor of architecture at the University of Notre Dame.

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INSIDE Trump’s soul: How a bullet changed his heart forever

“I have a new purpose,” then-candidate Donald Trump told reporter Salena Zito after surviving the assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. Salena joins Glenn Beck to reveal what Trump told her about God, his purpose in life, and why he really said, “Fight! Fight! Fight!”, as she details in her new book, “Butler: The Untold Story of the Near Assassination of Donald Trump and the Fight for America's Heartland”.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Salena, congratulations on your book. It is so good.

Just started reading it. Or listening to it, last night.

And I wish you would have -- I wish you would have read it. But, you know, the lady you have reading it is really good.

I just enjoy the way you tell stories.

The writing of this is the best explanation on who Trump supporters are. That I think I've ever read, from anybody.

It's really good.

And the description of your experience there at the edge of the stage with Donald Trump is pretty remarkable as well. Welcome to the program.

SALENA: Thank you, Glenn. Thank you so much for having me.

You know, I was thinking about this, as I was ready to come on. You and I have been along for this ride forever. For what?

Since 2006? 2005?

Like 20 years, right?

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah.

SALENA: And I've been chronicling the American people for probably ten more years, before that. And it's really remarkable to me, as watching how this coalition has grown. Right?

And watching how people have the -- have become more aspirational.

And that's -- and that is what the conservative populist coalition is, right?

It is the aspirations of many, but the celebration of the individual.

And chronicling them, yeah. Has been -- has been, a great honor.

GLENN: You know, I was thinking about this yesterday, when -- when Elon Musk said he was starting another party.

And somebody asked me, well, isn't he doing what the Tea Party tried to do?

No. The Tea Party was not going to start a new party.

It was to -- you know, it was to coerce and convince the Republican Party to do the right thing. And it worked in many ways. It didn't accomplish what we hoped.

But it did accomplish a lot of things.

Donald Trump is a result of the Tea Party.

I truly believe that. And a lot of the people that were -- right?

Were with Donald Trump, are the people that were with the Tea Party.


SALENA: That's absolutely right.

So that was the inception.

So American politics has always had movements, that have been just outside of a party. Or within a party.

That galvanize and broaden the coalition. Right? They don't take away. Or walk away, and become another party.

If anything, if there is a third party out there, it's almost a Republican Party.

Because it has changed in so many viable and meaningful ways. And the Tea Party didn't go away. It strengthened and broadened the Republican Party. Because these weren't just Republicans that became part of this party.

It was independents. It was Democrats.

And just unhappy with the establishment Republicans. And unhappy with Democrats.

And that -- that movement is what we -- what I see today.

What I see every day. What I saw that day, in butler, when I showed I happen at that rally.

As I do, so many rallies, you know, throughout my career. And that one was riveting and changed everything.

GLENN: You made a great case in the opening chapter. You talk about how things were going for Donald Trump.

And how this moment really did change everything for Donald Trump.

Changed the trajectory, changed the mood.

I mean, Elon Musk was not on the Trump train, until this.

SALENA: Yeah.

GLENN: Moment. What do I -- what changed? How -- how did that work?

And -- and I contend, that we would have much more profound change, had the media actually done their job and reported this the way it really was. Pragmatism

SALENA: You know, and people will find this in the book. I'm laying on the ground with an agent on top of me.

I'm 4 feet away from the president.

And there's -- there's notices coming up on my phone. Saying, he was hit by broken glass.

And to this take, that remains part of this sibling culture, in American politics.

Because reporters were -- were so anxious to -- to right what they believed happened.

As opposed to what happened.

And it's been a continual frustration of mine, as a reporter, who is on the ground, all the time.

And I'll tell you, what changed in that moment.

And I say a nuance, and I believe nuance is dead in American journalism.

But it was a nuance and it was a powerful conversation, that I had with President Trump, the next day. He called me the next morning.

But it's a powerful conversation I had with him, just two weeks ago.

When he made this decision to say, fight, fight, fight.

People have put in their heads, why they think he said it. But he told me why he said that. And he said, Salena, in that moment, I was not Donald Trump the man. I was a former president. I was quite possibly going to be president again.

And I had an obligation to the country, and to the office that I have served in, to project strength. To project resolve.

To project that we will not be defeated.

And it's sort of like a symbolic eagle, that is always -- you know, that symbol that we look at, when we think about our country.

He said, that's why I said that. I didn't want the people behind me panicking. I didn't want the people watching, panicking.

I had to show strength. And it's that nuance -- that I think people really picked up on.

And galvanized people.

GLENN: So he told me, when he was laying down on the stage.

And you can hear him. Let me get up. Let me get up.

I've got to get up.

He told me, as I was laying on the stage. I asked him, what were you thinking? What was going through your head? Now, Salena, I don't know about you.

But with me. It would be like, how do I get off the stage? My first was survival.

He said, what was going on through his mind was, you're not pathetic. This is pathetic.

You're not afraid. Get up.

Get up.

And so is that what informed his fight, fight, fight, of that by the time that he's standing up, he's thinking, I'm a symbol? Or do you think he was thinking, I'm a symbol, this looks pathetic. It makes you look weak.

Stand up. How do you think that actually happened?

SALENA: He thinks, and we just talked about this weeks ago. He -- you know, and this is something that he's really thought about.

Right? You know, he's gone over and over and over. And also, purpose and God. Right? These are things that have lingered with him.

You know, he -- he thought, yes.

He did think, it was pathetic that he was on the ground. But he wasn't thinking about, I'm Donald Trump. It's pathetic.

He's thinking, my country is symbolically on the ground. I need to get up, and I need to show that my country is strong.

That our country is resolute.

And I need people to see that.

We can't go on looking like pathetic.

Right?

And I think that then goes to that image of Biden.

GLENN: You have been with so many presidents.

How many presidents do you think that you've personally been with, would have thought that and reacted that way?

SALENA: Probably only Reagan. Reagan would have. Reagan probably would have thought that.

And if you remember how he was out like standing outside.

You know, waving out the window. Right?

After he was shot.

GLENN: At the hospital, right.

SALENA: Had he not been knocked out, unconscious, you know, he probably would have done the same thing.

Because he was someone who deeply believed in American exceptionalism.

And American exceptionalism does not go lay on the ground.

GLENN: And the symbol.

Right. The symbol of the presidency.

SALENA: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that affects him today.

GLENN: So let me go back to God.

Because you talked to him the next day. And your book Butler.

He calls you up.

I love the fact that your parents would be ashamed of you. On what you said to him.

The language you used. That you just have to read the book.

It's just a great part.

But he calls you the next morning. And wants to know if you're okay.

And you -- you then start talking to him, about God.

And I was -- I was thinking about this, as I was listening to it. You know, Lincoln said, I wasn't -- I wasn't a Christian.

Even though, he was.

I wasn't a Christian, when I was elected. I wasn't a Christian when my son died.

I became a Christian at Gettysburg.

Is -- is -- I mean, I believe Donald Trump always believes in God, et cetera, et cetera.

Do you think there was a real profound change at Butler with him?


SALENA: Absolutely. You know, he called me seven times that day. Seven times, the take after seven.

GLENN: Crazy.

SALENA: Talked about. And I think he was looking for someone that he knew, that was there. And to try to sort it out.

Right? And I let him do most of the talking. I didn't pressure him.

At all. I believed that he was having -- you know, he was struggling. And he needed to just talk. And I believed my purpose was to listen.

Right? I know other reporters would have handled it differently. And that's okay. That's not the kind of reporter that I am.

And I myself was having my own like, why didn't I die?

Right?

Because it went right over my head.

And -- and so I -- he had the conversation about God.

He's funny. I thought it was the biggest mosquito in the world that hit me.

But he had talked profoundly about purpose. You know, and God.

And how God was in that moment.

It --

GLENN: I love the way you -- in the book, I love the way you said that as he's kind of working it out in his own he head.

He was like, you know, I -- I -- I always knew that there was some sort of, you know -- that God was present.

He said, but now that this has happened.

I look back at all of the trials.

All of the tribulations. Literally, the trials.

All of the things that have happened. And he's like, I realized God was there the whole time.

SALENA: Yes. He does. And it's fascinating to have been that witness to history, to have those conversations with him. Because I'm telling you. And y'all know, I can talk. I didn't say much of anything.

I just -- I just listened. I felt that was my purpose, in that moment.

To give him that space, to work it out.

I'm someone that is, you know, believes in God.

I'm Catholic. I followed my faith.

And -- and so, I thought, well, this is why God put me here. Right?

And to -- to have that -- to hear him talk about purpose, to hear him say, Salena. Why did I put a chart down?

I'm like, sir. I don't know. I thought you were Ross Perot for a second.

He never has a chart. And he laughed. And then he said, why did I put that chart down?

By that term, I never turned my head away from people at the rally. That's true.

That relationship is very transactional. It's very -- they feed off of each other.

It's a very emotive moment when you attend a rally. Because he has a way of talking at a rally. That you believe that you are seeing.

And he said, and I never turn my head away.

I never turn my head away.

Why did I turn my head away?

I don't remember consciously thinking about turning my head away. And then he says to me, that was God, wasn't it?

Yes, sir. It was. It was God.

And he said, that's -- that's why I have a new purpose.

And so, Glenn. I think it's important, when you look at the breadth of what has happened, since he was sworn in.

You see that purpose, every day.

He doesn't let up.

He continues going.

And it brings back to the beginning of the book.

Where you find out, that there was another president that was shot at in Butler.

And that was George Washington. And how different the country would have been, had he died in that moment.

And now think about how different the country would be, had President Trump died in that moment. There would be --

GLENN: We're talking to -- we're talking to Salena Zito. About her new book called Butler. The assassination attempt on President Trump. And it is riveting.

And, you know, it is so good. I wish the press would read it. Because it really explains who we are, who Trump supporters are. Who are, you know, red staters. It is so good at that. She's the best at that.