It does not matter what side you’re on a terrorist is a terrorist and Glenn is right he is terrorist and needs to be treated as such. We cannot bow down to terror and there will be copy cats be careful all of you.

Laws involving murder of “numerous” innocents/mass murder, where there are numerous witnesses, regardless of a person’s psyche, should be amended or changed to include death by firing squad within 48 hours of the act/being arrested, i.e., last night’s shooting and Ft Hood.  They should be reclassified as “terrorist” crimes involving mass murder and dealt with harshly and swiftly.  The same law should also apply to degenerate adults who kill children under age 12 

Hillary Clinton and Obama will definitely use this to help their gun ban.. that is what happened in Australia, when they banned guns there. A young guy killed 35 people and gave the excuse to ban guns… you know it will be bad for the ability to protect ourselves..
Why did the puke have to kill kids…so terrible.
I wouldn’t be surprised if somehow the government had hypotized or some other way to control this guy (terrorist).. the government does not care who dies, all they care if they get their way..I dont trust them at all…just wait, after they pretend to care, more will come because of this..

”I wouldn’t be surprised if somehow the government had hypotized or some other way to control this guy (terrorist)…”

Would you be surprised if people called you an idiot?

Hey Nutt. If our government could brainwash people into doing things that further their evil agenda, don’t you think that they would? It is not so far fetched as it may sound.

Listen well, there is a clear case of the use of terror by this shooter; even though he appears to be a true madman (a court will decide if he meets the legal definitions of that), he still sought by the usage of force and chaos to imply his will over a gathering of innocent people, in this case with deadly results.

Users of terror, from your average street thug or robber, to the ultimate fanatics and radicals seek to change society, impliment by force and intimidation their own will over others without their free consent, and thus gain dominance and compliance.

This in the end causes dramatic changes in the society on the micro and marco scale; as now people will wonder for a time if they go to the movies will another madman be lurking in the shadows? Will there be other copycats and such waiting?

On the macro; the political opportunists are already spewing their madness of this being the responsibility of the tea party, conservatives, pro gun lobbies and the like, while demanding more and more gun control and such. These manipulators and insinuators are the ultimate of polititcal terror users as well (note – NOT TERRORISTS IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE), in that they seek to change society to their madness utopian ideals via the exploitation of tragedy.

So we have those who will use terror for their own ends, and those who will manipulate and exploit the emotions of the terrorized for their ends, which puts them in the same field.

Those of us in the middle, the people of the nation, from family to states and nation, are the final ones who decide how the terror users win or lose; do we deal with it as a community, family and society and hold all users and exploiters accountable, or do we let them win and force their changes upon us?

Which is it to be America?

We cannot bow down to terror and there will be copy cats be careful all of you. http://AmazingWayOnlineCash.blogspot.com

Actually there are two sides in the matter of terror; those who use it to coerce society to change, and those who will exploit the reactions caused by the terror for their own ends. Both groups need to be held to task by the people of the land for their deeds.

You have the Right name except you need to add Obama Sucker.

So, If there were no gun control laws in Colorado, and there were a few armed patrons (Who new the difference between right and wrong), and were really good shots. How many would have died in this incident and how many wounded. When politicians start calling on greater and greater controls of guns. The only ones who will have guns are the overworked police force and the criminals. 

This man was a student and owned four guns (At least), I haven’t heard yet, but I would assume all were registered in one state or another. So that means he passed all the “Normal” tests to own a gun. The only thing he lacked was the fear of the instant reprisal of another armed citizen. Which is what is lost in the the shadow of Gun control.

Has anyone seen the movie “KOCH BROTHERS EXPOSED”  Any comments?

I think it might be jumping to conclusions to call him a terrorist.  Don’t you think that it’s possible that this highly intelligent fellow who just spent many years and dollars to be doctor in neurosciences, and seemingly quit school around the time HEATHCARE REFORM took shape; is reacting to the system as a whole, which is not going to pay him an earned doctor’s living in the future, and requires the govt. now to approve what he does for people, including children with disabilities (many neuro problems)? 

Nope, but if you don’t look at the corruption and the many devices they have to manipulate us, then you are ignorant…
For your info, the government has ways to cause heart attacks and in past was experimenting with ways to use the brain to make do things..don’t be an ignorance and open your eyes…the government has ways you don’t know about to get their way..I expect many things will be coming until we get rid of a marxist in the white house..even still our government has been expermenting for many years.

Sick sick sick .

Also, there have been many shows where they are hymotized people to do terrible things at a certain time or from a certain word to come into gear and not even know it…maybe the government didn’t hypmotize this kid, but I DO NOT TRUST OUR GOVERNMENT.. too many secrets

The Manchurian Candidate…

It has been proven time and time again that the criminals will get their hands on any weapons that are denied the general population.  There is always going to be someone that is corrupt somewhere…

People don’t have to be hypnotized, there are those that will suffer consequences/death for a large amount of money to take care of their family when they are gone, and they usually have lost all hope and don’t care if they die… (Get paid first and do something dangerous and stupid.)

demoRat supported lib/prog occunut goes on rampage at capitalist movie theater and kills capitalist movie goers

ABC News this evening reported that the shooter was job hunting so it follows (via left thinking) that Obama is to blame for not creating a job of this poor helpless young man.

OK OK we get it, damage controlled to no end -_-

Yeah Big Brave Beck, isn’t going to allow a terrorist act to stop him from going to the movie!
Yeah what Beck doesn’t say is that he has a security team that travels with him at all times.
You can act really tough and brave when you others providing security!

I feel bad for lall people who will be in the theater with Beck. Yuck!  I demand my movie back if Beck was in my movie threater.

Beck is a crybaby!

Isn’t the movie called; “Koch Brothers expose themselve in public?”

Blah, Blah, Blah Snow Flake!
Your long diatribes and looney ravings are boring!

You are an idiot and that doesn’t surprise people!

Very good. See what you did there. Very, er, clever of you…

In that case you best strap on that tin-foil hat as tight as you possibly can.

…is a work of fiction.

Well you should be called Poo-poo-head, in that case. (Is this the level of debate?)

Well Nutt, you proved to be a Nut again.  The original movie with Frank Sinatra was taken from a real life story of a Lt Col who was taken prisoner in Korea and brainwashed/programed, but the end goal was not to assassinate the president.  Also, it is widely accepted among many in the government, that Robert Kennedy was killed by a manchurian type candidate.  There is also other evidence of mind control by soviet bloc countries.  Sorry to pop your little bubble but nightingaytle made a valid post 

Go armed.

None of the guns are ‘registered’ in Colorado because the law does not require it. A bit more freedom in Colorado. There is the federal background check, but that is not a registration.

Strictly speaking, a terrorist is one who commits violence in order to intimidate another into

granting his demands.  However, this man DID terrorize those in the theater by his actions, by

filling them with terror.   In that regard, it looks like he could be labeled a terrorist. 

Charles Krauthammer had an interesting take on this person.  As a former practicing psychia-

trist, he is familiar with people with ”emotional problems.”  He said that interviews with family

members, friends, classmates might bring a clearer picture of what was in the shooter’s mind.

If his behavior was bizarre in anyway—if he said anything or was acting ”funny.”   He said when

people behave in a peculiar manner, often, others don’t want to get involved and don’t say or do

anything.  Even if they appear irrational, some will not go there.  CK also said the man did not

seem to be a psychotic since he had planned everything out so carefully.  (He was making a

comparison to the shooter in the G. Gifford incident who CK labeled a true psychotic.)

This level is perfect for you, but Parker already put it away.

 I heard it was “OCCUPY WALL STREETERS EXPOSED”.  Or how about “GEORGE SOROS EXPOSED”.

The situation in Colorado is bad. No doubt about that. 

I have owned and used all types of firearms since I was about 12 years old. I am an NRA member and proud of that. I still do a lt of target (sport) shooting whenever I have the time BUT I have never walked into a school or movie theater, a mall or a day care center to shoot people. NEVER. 

Why? Because most people who own and use their weapons legally, are not killers as the gun ban people want you to believe. We do not need them to control us because we (who are NOT mentaly unstable) control ourselves. 

The killer in this and other mass killings have ALL been either criminals with known criminal history OR they were mentally unstable as it appears this shooter is. 

What the gun ban people dont realize isthat PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE and always have for thousands of years before guns were ever invented. They used clubs, rocks, knives, and whatever other implement they could find to do their deed. The tools are endless. He or She in control of that tool was the problem – not the tool itself. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the shooter in this case had a personal problem.  How many people who reacted with this man in his daily life knew that he had problems?  What did they do about it?  What COULD they do about it? 

Don’t look at the tool.  Look at the person.  The individual person is the problem.  Not the tool.

I applaud Beck for saying this, although he is wrong.

There are only two real terrorists in this world : US & Israel. They are the only ones using bombs and threats to ‘terrorise’ and kill millions of human beings across the Globe, all for profit and theft.
This dude, like the suicide bomber, is a Criminal, a Murderer if you like. Your ‘Elites’ kill and steal, so why wouldn’t your citizens follow their example ?
This individual probably watched loads of ‘yipee kayay mf’ Holywood movies, and played computer games all night blowing mf’s away.

Cause and effect of your sick culture people.
And sloppy gun laws of course.

Keep snorting Snuff.

Yep.  I would bet that Obama, Holder, Hillary and others in the Marxist Socialist white house were dancing with delight on this incident – not because of he mass deaths, of course but because it gave them ammunition they need to push this Arms Trade Treaty that the UN is currently crafting. 

Passing this treaty would demonstrate that 100 million law abiding gun owners in the U.S. can have their Constitutional Rights sacrificed due to the actions of one mentally unstable madman.

It is really unfortunate that there wasn’t a law abiding gun owner who was armed and a part of that unfortunate audience.  That law abiding gun owner could have used his/her weapon to help protect the other people in that theater from the madman by shooting him before he shot so many innocent and unprotected people. 

People of this nation have the RIGHT to not be victims.  The Second Amendment guarantees that.  Why do they choose to be victims?

Lets hope it doesn’t pass.

It sickens me that people use tragedy to push their agendas. It dishonors the people who died to protect the constitution and dishonors the victims that died yesterday. I find it odd that some here on the left instead of grieving for the lives that where taken they turn this into lets destroy the second amendment because that’s is the problem. That in my view is like blaming McDonalds for people getting fat. As far as a can see if their where someone with a gun there to shoot the crazy man then there would be less dead. The democratic governor in Colorado basically said that we cannot over react and take civil liberties away because of what one man did. Surly if he gets it then the left wingers here should. Nice talking to you again friend. I hope things are going well for you. I had to take a break for blogging this election is getting to cut throat for me then I started doing so. So then I figure I should just wait until the end of the election but after this I had to come out and be a light for others. I will be going away again but I will return.
Ryan

I agree, I believe the violent video, and movies are what’s causing a lot of this violence. Some kids can watch this and they know the difference of reality and some have a problem and get caught up in it.  

I agree, I think its the violent videos we allow the children to watch, some kids can watch these videos and know the difference in reality and fantasies, and some can’t they become the character and act it out, also they tell you how and where to buy the explosives. 

 Yes, and I add an Amen to what you say. There are many many people alive today who would not be alive if the gun control people infesting our country had their way. Unfortunately for this dozen or so who died in Colorado there was no law abiding armed citizen on the scene ready to take action to save them.

I agree with you 1000% the US & Israel are the the 2 biggest terrorists on God’s green Earth. They are mass murdering people with bombs and threats, etc. all for profit, theft, and nationalistic racist imperialistic lunatic aspirations. They both were the real culprits that were behind and did 9/11 & falsely pinned it on Muslims to get public support to do their illegal, immoral wars & occupations of countries for their own sick twisted imperialistic, diseased, immoral, unjust, & tyrannical aspirations. It’s also for profit, so they can drain those countries out of their resources and also keep them dependent on American goods and aid, among many other reasons. They are the ones that are causing problems in countries all over, like Syria currently, and many other countries as well. They are funding assassins and militias to go into those countries and shoot at and kill civilians along with military people and when the military goes in there to protect it’s civilians and clash with & kill these hired militias, the US & it’s Zionist daughter Israel make it appear to the world that the government of Syria is killing it’s own people and they have to go in there and stop them and remove that government. They lie and twist and distort everything they show on tv and everything they say. They make it like a hollywood movie. They are massive liars. They don’t believe in God, they just use religion as a symbol and sport, they are satanists, cause God would not want anyone killing anyone and stealing peoples lands and resources, they are hypocrites of the highest order and the real terrorists and problem causers in the whole world. Israel is nothing more than an American state, most of these so-called Jews are not even Semites, but Europeans who converted to Judaism the last few to several centuries, they are not a nationality and have no genealogical or historical ties to Palestine, they are just a bunch of European crusaders and thugs that want to steal peoples lands and make a false identity for themselves, they are not the real or same Israelites of the times of Moses, Jesus, etc., they are imposters from Europe who converted to Judaism and are trying to pass themselves off as Jews, and not only that, but they wanna pass themselves off as the real Jews of Biblical times, and make other Jews that aren’t of European background not real Jews, except the European Jew. They aren’t done with their land grabbing aspirations, they still want more land from other surrounding countries and the US government is trying to help them fulfill their insanity. People, Muslims aren’t your enemies, they are just fighting to protect their lands and peoples from these evil, lying, racist, imperialistic thugs. Don’t believe all their distorted, twisted, put the shoe on the other foot lies and fabrications, they just want to manipulate you so you can go along with what they do or have no problems with it, they want to scare you and make it look like Muslims are your enemies, and are out for world domination and are terrorists, etc, because they know all those things they accuse Muslims of being and doing are really what they are, they just lie, twist, and distort, and put the shoe on the other foot. People wake up, they are killing millions of innocent people all over the world along with sending their own people to get killed for their evils. They talk about over-throwing governments and changing governments in other countries, in reality, they’re the ones that should be over-thrown and changed even more so than governments in other countries. They just want to put puppet governments in those countries. The US government, which is run by Zionist European convert Jews, along with the pirate/terrorist state of Israel, are the greatest threats to all humanity & civilization. People, if you don’t take a stand against them and continue to blindly follow them and their misleading deceptions, which they’re banking on you doing, it’s going to be curtains for all humanity, when WWIII ends up happening because of those satanic thugs. This is the 1000% real truth, go find out, read, talk to peoples, research, keep an open mind, don’t let them deceive you and think for you.

Good follow up Basil !

Hope you’ve a hard hat on … you may have mentioned ‘jew’ once too often

Mr Beck
keep telling us truth
i like romney, i believe he is an honest man
We must get Obama out , he is such a bold face lier
a  grinning idiot, enjoyg the fruits of the peoples
labour,and misery
he dos,t  hve a brain

 

Glenn, I would like to thank you for your encouragement going
into theater or being with a large group of people. I was ready to “pack it in”
not being with large groups of people due to the fact the shooter acted on my
fear.

If I am a nut, then how come there is an article about obama  staging this in time for the gun ban in a few days…you should not be so nasty and check out possiblities..obama is a dangerous and deceiving man.
check this out:
http://www.westernjournalism.com/was-colorado-shooting-staged-by-the-government/

Everyone, check out possiblity of Obama staging this for his gun ban in a few days…Death means nothing to this evil man. he is just an actor pretending he cares…he doesn’t care
check out this article on  Shooting Staged by Obama  http://www.westernjournalism.com/was-colorado-shooting-staged-by-the-government/

http://www.westernjournalism.com/was-colorado-shooting-staged-by-the-government/

http://www.westernjournalism.com/was-colorado-shooting-staged-by-the-government/

You don’t think hypnosis is powerful enough to do that?

Or you don’t think the dark forces in the federal government or shadow government would use that technique to have a dramatic platform on which to sign the UN gun control treaty?

Look up “Manchurian Candidate”. The original black and white movie didn’t get aired on national TV for like 30 years after Kennedy was shot.

I can already see Hillary with tears in her eyes sadly proclaiming that the shootings in Colorado are just more proof that this UN gun control treaty is the right thing to do.

Why do you think Holder has been with-holding information about who was the mastermind behind Fast and Furious? They were going to use Fast and Furious as evidence to justify disarming law abiding US citizens.

Criminals . . . by definition . . .don’t obey the law. No gun control law will EVER stop criminals from having guns.

 Hey NightinGayle,

I just wanted to thank you for the link to that article it was awesome!

you must be a liberal..they are always the nasty ones…get off this conservative site..your type does not belong here

And yet you spend your valuable time here, gracing us with your presence?

What does that say about you?

Why do you deign to stoop to such levels as visit a forum on Glenn Beck’s site since you despise him so much?

I smell a troll. . .

So a 24 year old on unemployment get $20,000  worth of arms from where?
Who paid for these guns and he reminds me of the Ted Kaczynski case where the University was using him for mind control experiments.
Mk ultra
http://illuminatiwatcher.com/?p=2948
A classic sign of an MK Ultra victim is when people are interviewed and say things about how this was so unexpected, etc. Interviews with James Holme’s friends and neighbors say that it was unexpected, and surely his graduate student status wouldn’t show any signs of instability. They said he bought a ticket and sat down to watch the film, but later got up and did we he did. Perhaps there was a “trigger” in the Dark Knight film? Doesn’t this strike anybody as odd?

Credit Cards?  He probably had no intention of paying the money back.

 His first credit card with a $20,000 spending limit wow.

What?  His knowledge too much for you?  Does he just have too many words you can’t comprehend, lol?  If you even had a clue, snowleopard wouldn’t be boring whatsoever.

Well, since Hitler did it, no doubt our government can.

Well, to be fair, it has been shown that very few people can actually be hypnotized.  A person has to be in a specific state of mind to be hypnotized.  Sleep deprivation can do it.  Certain drugs can do it.  Now, I don’t trust our current administration, but I actually do doubt that is the case.  It’s just a leap.

BASED ON AN ACTUAL EVENT.  Nice of you to prove your ignorance, nutt.

Hitler’s Germany, nutt.  I’m sure you’ve heard what Hitler did to pretty much hypnotize HIS OWN PEOPLE.  Man are you stupid or what.

Considering that NEITHER the US NOR Israel are actually using bombs or threats to terrorize and kill millions of human beings ANYWHERE on this planet, your claim is a COMPLETELY idiotic one at best.  All the stories of Islamic terrorists who have absolutely NOTHING to do with either the US or Israel and the suicide bombings of INNOCENT civilians that, too, have absolutely NOTHING to do with either the US or Israel tell a TOTALLY different story from yours, you know.  You might want to get some actually FACTS into your statements some time.

Guess what.  The fact that the US and Israel have so far NOT mass murdered ANYONE ANYWHERE kind of proves you to be an outright liar.  Seeing as Americans and Israelis seem to be actual VICTIMS of suicide bombings from ACTUAL terrorists that kill Americans and Israelis in mass, you, son, are a TOTAL idiot.

Well, it happens.  They sometimes give those kinds of credit cards to animals, after all.  Stranger things have certainly happened.

Well, he probably pays that security team well, lol.  More power to him.  Wish I had that luxury.  As for you and your ignorant, narcissistic rant, on the other hand, I would say your direct and open whining makes YOU a crybaby.  So what’s your excuse, ignorant buffoon?

You mean there’s a film out there explaining how the Koch brothers were exposed as good hearted, charitable, wealth, upstanding individuals who actually CARE about the society as a whole and know how to TRULY make America sensational again, lol?  Good to know.  Would love to watch a film based around actual TRUTH rather than the lies you liberal idiots spew, vacmancant.

You say, “God would not want anyone killing anyone”,etc. ???????
 
When was the last time you read your bible?  Because mine is filled with God sending people into battle often.  Going after corrupt governments and it’s people, who chose not to worship the God of the bible,  seizing their land and all that was in it.

Ever hear the story about how God delivered the Israelites and led them to the land of milk and honey?  First they had to seize that land!!  So who does Israel belong to? The Jews!  Not the Muslims! 

  HELLO…. MacFly is there anyone home?

The God of the bible is not a Muslim and does not support their evil agenda.

You carry on and on, blah, blah, blah, about the US. With such contempt for us oozing through in your writings, I’m compelled to believe you are either a Muslim, or,… a very misguided soul who has been fooled by this current, socialistic government, that wants you to believe Americans are the evil ones. 
If the latter is true, you are being led astray like a lamb to be slaughtered.

Muslims main agenda is to kill Jews, Christians and anyone who does not worship their god! Factual!  Seems you haven’t done your homework, may I suggest you take a stab at reading the Koran.

 

Your assumption’s wrong, I’m not a Muslim, I’m Scottish and pale as they come.
And aren’t you a bit old for believing in Santa Clause.
Not surprising though since I recently discovered a top US educational institute is teaching the existence of the ‘Loch Ness Monster’ as fact, thus demonstrating that the Earth’s only 5000 years old or something. 

Hate to break it to ya: Santa; Nessy; The Tooth Fairy; God…… ALL FICTION. 

A personal faith is ones own business, and it should remain that way.

I disagree that he is a terrorist, he is definitely a murderer but lets be careful about throwing around the term terrorist. If we start saying everything is terrorism it will have disastrous consequences.

On average I think it’s 2 US civilians die annually from ‘terror’ incidents. 30-35 die from dog attacks. 72 die from lightning.

How much you spending on your phony War on Terror ?

Vietnam, Indigenous Americans, Iraq, Afghan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Yugoslavia, Bahrain, Arabia, Palestine, Cambodia, Laos… Agent Orange, depleted uranium, phosphorous, Cast Lead, nuclear explosions, carpet bombing civilian areas, arming your enemies, inciting violence and civil wars, chem & bio weapons you still refuse to give up … blah blah till the cows come home.
Lots of the above on-going.

Have a look at the Wiki list of US wars / Military intervensions. Then think how many times your shores have been threatened ?

Have you people noticed that all the nut cases have either came from Nut Central Left Coast or Crime Central Illinois and the Northeast?
James Holmes……. San Diego
Timothy Mcviegh….New York
Ted Kaczynski…….Chicago
Bill Ayers……………Chicago

I love idiots… Guns do not kill… people kill…. they were killing with swords and arrows before guns…… and spears before that… and rocks before spears… Those are all tools…… According to your ideology, Obamacare should just outlaw forks and spoons because they cause people to get fat.

2 things bother me about this….1. he went directly to solitary confinement instead of general confinement. 2. everyone has automatically jump to the conclusion that he is insane and won’t stand trial…. sounds fishy to me  

2 Americans die annually from terror? Where have you been the last decade, son? 3,000 people died IN ONE DAY due ENTIRELY to terror on 9/11. The vast majority of them were, surprise, US civilians. Not to mention the TERRORISTS who kill their own fellow civilians in other countries across the globe, like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran just to name a few. Phony war on terror? The only thing phony here is you. News flash, idiot. The war on terror is a REAL war against ACTUAL terrorists. Also, NONE of the countries you mentioned are examples of US or Israel mass murdering people. Quite the contrary, it is the people of said countries who are mass murdering THEIR OWN fellow civilians.

Why don’t you have a look at the Wiki list of US wars/military interventions and consider this DOCUMENTED FACT. NONE of those wars or military interventions were because of the US. They are NOT even US wars. They are times when the US came to the aid of people who were being mass murdered by their own government. The US was NOT behind it. Those foreign governments were. Of course, TOTAL morons like yourself would never believe it simply because you are a TOTAL moron, lol.

ohhhhh…
Lee Harvey Oswald ………. New YorkJames Earl Ray……………. IllinoisCharles Manson……………. Ohio

You’re in denial & have your facts mixed up. The Jews & Christians main agendas is to kill Muslims and anyone who is not like them. Islam is an upright religion and a fair religion and moral, and Christians and Jews see it as a threat to their man-made decadent societies and ideologies. I’ve read the Koran many times you’ve obviously never have, you just get quotes from these liars that tell you the Koran says kill all non-believers, which it does not, it says to attack people only when they attack you first, it also says if they give you guarantees of peace you’re not to war against them in any way, it also says only fight combatants that attack you first, not civilians. The Koran also mentions there is no compulsion in religion, it says to speak the word to them if they wanna hear it, but if they don’t, don’t force anyway, it’s up to them to accept it if they want to, if they don’t that’s fine as well. So, you clearly are ignorant, stubborn, and in denial & most probably a liar. If you look at Christians throughout history slaughtering the Native Americans, Africans, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, slavery, & forcing people to convert to Christianity, I think you will see that you people fit the bill of what  you accuse Muslims to be. Look at WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, & the countless other wars started by Christians that have resulted ij the mass killings & murder of 100′ of millions of people throughout history and the constant stealing of peoples lands, also look out the apartheid that was in South Africa, last I checked they were Christians, not Muslims. Look at the Oklahoma City bomber, and the millions of other cases of terrorism done on a daily basis ranging from theft, murder, rape, child pedophilia, etc. etc., on the news on a daily basis, are almost always Christians, and those things all would be a form of Terrorism. All the prophets of the Bible and Torah are in the Koran, so when you act like the Koran is a totally different book than yours, you clearly don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, in fact, the prophet most mentioned in the Koran is Moses, did you know that. We believe in Jesus and his mother Marry, they both have chapters in the Koran about them, the Jews don’t believe in Jesus. Another thing you like to bring up about Islam, is how it supposedly oppresses women, women were given rights in Islam to vote, inheritance, to even be allowed to combat in wars, etc., that women in the so-called West just recently started doing. You may say what in Saudi Arabia that just started to allow women to drive, that’s only 1 of more than several dozen Muslim countries, and if that’s what they were doing in Saudi Arabia, they were not following the Koran, they were following their own man made laws like they do in this country. In the West women are no more than sex objects and prostitutes, look at the pornography, rape, std’s, pregnancy’s before marriage, fornicating before marriage, etc. etc. Lastly, the God of the Bible and Torah is the same God as in the Koran whether you like it or not. All the prophets were Muslims, not Christians or Jews, and Islam is the only religion acceptable to the one true God, Jesus was a messenger, not God and he never claimed to be God anywhere in the Bible, which I have read many times as well, sorry but God is not a man, you people are in denial and deluded, and are just very ignorant and hateful. Keep an open mind maybe one day God will guide you to the truth, and you’ll realize reality, and you’ll realize that Muslims are not terrorists, but Christians & Jews are the ones that are, not all of them but some of them are the main peoples that are in the wrong and are the ones committing crimes against peoples all over the world and are the real terrorists, for someone who has their lands occupied then fight back, is not a terrorist, it’s people who occupy other peoples lands and steal them that are terrorists, get your facts straight and open your closed minds up.

Let me go down the list of some the wars you claim are the fault of America, shall I, just to explain how incredibly STUPID you are.

Vietnam- Not only is this NOT actually a US war seeing as it was NOT instigated by the US, the US stayed out of it for its first decade for crying out loud, the US isn’t even responsible for most of the killing. Surprise, it was NORTH VIETNAM who is responsible for the vast majority of ALL deaths in that war. The North Vietnamese were responsible in killing MORE THAN a million of their own during the war. After the US stepped down, the North Vietnamese killed MILLIONS more of their own just to put down the South Vietnamese and end those who stood against them. Mind you that that was AFTER the US actually LEFT Vietnam.

Iraq and Afghanistan- The people of both countries actually BEGGED for the US to invade just to put down Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. Again, most of the killing isn’t even due to the US. Surprise, they are due to IRAQI and AFGHANI terrorists who intentionally KILL thousands of their OWN fellow citizens regularly simply because they hate freedom. Heck, it is VERY WELL KNOWN that Hussein has tortured, raped, and flat out MURDERED hundreds of thousands of his own people just for his own selfish pleasure. Mass murder on America’s part. No. NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY.

Libya- Give me a break on this one. Though America’s involvement here is actually ILLEGAL Constitutionally speaking, we can thank Obama for this one as well, the US isn’t really responsible for much of the killing if any at all. Gaddafi and the Revolutionaries who stood against him are responsible for the killing. They are the ones who ACTUALLY INSTIGATED THE VIOLENCE, after all. The US had NO say whatsoever.

Palestine- Also laughable. News flash. Palestinians have been harassing the Jews for DECADES. Palestinians have been terrorizing Jews going back to AT LEAST 1920. Here is a site for you listing the number of such victims of such attacks between 1920 and 1959.
http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm
Let me be clear. Those are SPECIFICALLY Jewish death at the hands of PALESTINIAN terrorists. In terms of Palestine, there are absolutely NO mass murders coming from Israel. On the contrary, the mass murders are come from Israel’s enemies. You know, PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS. Of course, these basic DOCUMENTED FACTS don’t seem to get in the way of your imagination, do they?

Yugoslavia- Come on. Idiots like you can do better than that. The US ONLY got involved in that war because of a force called NATO. That is more a NATO war than a US one. Beside the point, though, because it wasn’t really started by NATO or the US. The YUGOSLAVIANS THEMSELVES started it when they began killing each other. And the bombings weren’t even specifically US. Are you forgetting about France’s own bombs which killed thousands at just one single point in the war? Man, I guess the US is to blame for France’s actions, too. Again, beside the point, though, since most of the death toll from Yugoslavia comes from the YUGOSLAVIANS THEMSELVES. When they kill each other, NO ONE with an actual brain would blame the US.

And the carpet bombing civilian areas nonsense. News flash. The US does NOT carpet bomb CIVILIAN areas. The US, and Israel too for that matter, carpet bomb MILITARY and GOVERNMENT complexes. There is a MAJOR difference between the two. Quite the contrary, it is the ACTUAL TERRORISTS who carpet bomb civilian areas. Like when Hamas carpet bombs CIVILIAN areas in Israel regularly.

News flash, too. America, and Israel too for that matter, has NEVER incited civil wars. Civil wars have ALWAYS been incited by the specific governments of specific countries that fight the civil war. Civil wars are the fault of EACH INDIVIDUAL country alone. The US has absolutely NO bearing or any real involvement in ANY civil war except to come to the aid of the side that interests the government more. The civil war itself has NEVER once been instigated by the US. Yugoslavia Civil War- Started by Yugoslavians and instigated by Yugoslavians. Libyan Civil War- Started by Libyans and instigated by Libyans. On and on and on you will find that civil wars have ALWAYS been started and instigated by, surprise, the actual citizens of those countries that are actually center stage for those civil wars.

And chemical and biological weapons we still refuse to give up? Beside the fact that we actually ARE giving them up gradually seeing as we don’t have anywhere near as much as we used to, why should we? China hasn’t. Russia hasn’t. England hasn’t even. Heck, for all their talk, France has even yet to do so. If other countries won’t even do so, why should we, lol? Your lack of logic here is absolutely astounding. Try to form a sense of logic before even arguing, please.

Well, the way I see it, the ATT is a direct violation of the Constitution of the United States of America and any Public official, who took the oath of office to defend and protect the Constitution who signs the ratification of said ATT treaty, will be guilty of subversion and treason.  

I don’t think JJ Swiontek was taking a stance against gun control here, at least I can’t see how.

Or for it for that matter.

I think your rude comment was kind of boring.

You are obviously an in denial jack ass that is obviously Anti-Muslim. You are uneducated and ignorant and a liar who just will do and say anything to try and support your baseless, wrong, & false claims. I’m curious why do you stick up for Israel so much, you’re probably a Jew, since most of the peoples on these sites that bash Muslims & stick up for Jews are going to be for the most part Jews or those Christian fanatic types. Since when do Christians love Jews so much, last I checked, crusades, inquisiton, Nazi Germany, and all over Europe, Christians were slaughtering Jews left and right, and since when do Jews love Christians, they treat Christians like crap in Israel and don’t believe in Jesus and use all kinds of profanity about him. All the examples you give are a load of baloney. Have you actually ever been to these countries that you claim to know so much about what’s really going on there, I don’t think so. Israel and the US constantly do illegal things all over the world, it’s well known they violate all kinds of International laws, you should do your research jack. Israel was created and put in that region by the British and the other powers that be at the time as a way to keep people divided. Israel is no more than an American/Western military base and attack dog in that region, and it’s well known that they have nukes and many other various forms of deadly weapons supplied by the US, UK, & other countries, that they along with the US have used on peoples in their so-called wars, do your research clown. It’s well-known Israel refuses to sign the nuclear treaty and does all kinds of illegal acts to the palestinians on a daily basis, ranging from illegal settlements, arrests, occupations, etc. You people are waging a war against Islam because it’s a threat to your  man-made, capitalistic, hedonistic, unjust, decadent, anything goes societies. They’re afraid if Islam spreads or Muslims come to power, it’s the end of the line for the West and all their immoral, ungodly filth of societies. Islam is a just religion, it’s upright, it’s clean, it’s about morals, being just, worshipping none but the Creator, not the creation, treating all peoples equally and fairly, liberating women, which is not the case in the West. It even tells you to treat animals with respect, you’re not to harm animals, the only animals you’re allowed to kill are just ones for consumption, not sport or any other reasons. That’s why they hate Islam it goes against all their evil man-made societies. Look at your societies, that are allegedly superior and modern: Pornography, homosexuality legalized, pedophilia, prostitution, std’s, alcohol, drugs, murders, rape, racism, anti-semitism, pre-marital sex people fornicating like animals left and right before marriage, the destruction of the family, no morality whatsoever, women dressing and acting like prostitutes and sex objects, gangs, and all kinds and forms of violence never before seen in the history of man, and you have the nerve to open your mouthes, I would really take a good hard look in the mirror before I was you and worry about the garbage in your backyards before you worry about others. Absolutely the most ungodly, ungod-conscious societies to be found anywhere in the world. Always lying, twisting, distorting, slandering, and covering the truth, a bunch of hypocrites and conniving satanists. Look how God punishes you people with hurricanes, earthquakes, and he stirs up all these misfits in your societies to help corrupt and drag down your societies with all kinds of evils and immoralities. You’re a bunch of brainwashed ignorant blind followers, you don’t wanna take the time out to find out the truth about what’s really going on in the world and what’s the real purpose of life, instead you allow a bunch of lying, thieving, murderous, anti-god evil doers to educate, mislead, & misinform you. You people are just intellectually lazy, you want the easy way with everything. You get all your info from CNN, ABC, FOX, etc., a bunch of liars and coverers of the truth. You don’t even have any real freedoms anyway, if you open your mouthes up or oppose the government, then look out. Lastly, the original Israelites were Muslims and real semites, not a bunch of Europeans that converted to Judaism and are masquerading around as Biblical Jews, do your research, in fact many Jews, know this and know they are not descendants of the Biblical Israelites. The Palestinians are actually the descendants of the original Israelites, along with many other Muslim countries in that regions, did you know many of those Afghans are also descendants of the Israelites. You people hate the truth soooo bad, you hate hearing it unless it goes with your personal desires, even if someone brought you the clear evidence in your faces, if that 1000% evidence doesn’t go with your personal desires or beliefs, you’ll deny it till the last breath in your bodies even if it’s irrefutable proof. That’s how you people are cause your ignorant, close-minded, stubborn, arrogant, don’t like to be told your wrong, uncompromising, and hateful and have a big disease & sickness in your hearts. My very last message to you is stop wasting your times with non- senses and go find out the truth about what’s really going on in the world and the real purpose of life and stop chasing after this transient world which is gonna end one day and work on your afterlives before it’s too late for you people. Believe what you will and I will continue to believe what I believe in regarding politics, life, and God, cause it’s obvious you’ll never agree with or see eye to eye with me, I believe I’m right 100% just like you believe you’re right 100%. Ultimately, in the next life we’ll all know who was the good and the bad, the right and the wrong, & who ends up in Hell and who ends up in Paradise for eternity-I like my chances better than yours to end up in the latter of the 2 places mentioned. Have a good life and Afterlife!

His first? His only one?  Only $20,000?  Car title loan?  Maybe a lot more funds were at his disposal. Wow. Just speculation.

Jesus claims of being God: Read John 3,Matthew 22:41-46, Psalm 110:1.
John:18; He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John uses the Greek word here, monogenes, to make clear the difference in the relationship of God the Father of Jesus and us being the children of God.

There is no way you have read the bible many times and come to such a conclusion. I can at least accept it when a person tells me they have read it but CHOOSE not to believe it.
As far as Muslims believing in Jesus, so doesn’t Satan!

I don’t recall mentioning anything about women…..But since you brought it up; I have worked in the ministry and helped to save women from their abusive Muslim countries, husbands, fathers, brothers, and rapist, or, captures as I call them.
In the Muslim culture men are raised to see women as disposable objects.
As in any faith you get some that stray from the norm. Even in the Muslim culture some men actually fall in love with their wife and love their daughters. Which puts them in danger should they not obey the laws if called to kill one of them for some stupid offense.

If you believe we are as evil as you have built us up to be here in your ramblings, why don’t you go and live with those you defend with such passion.
The foundation of OUR country was built and based on the God of the Bible not the god of the Koran.

I grow weary of your unfounded and delusional claims that we are terrorists. At this point it is the only one and true God of the Bible who is able to change the lies of Satan you and your friend Zooropa Fly choose to so easily accept.
You do know, don’t you, that God says Satan is the father of all lies.
So as you spread your lying propaganda, you serve him well!

Jesus said no one can come to the Father except through me.
I pray that the Father deliver you from the captivity of your delusions and sin and keep you till the day of your salvation. I pray for all believers to be refreshed by the Holy Spirit as they fight the good fight, and don’t grow weary in running the race.
In Jesus name AMEN!!

NUMBERS 6:24-26

I didn’t know our nationality determined our faith!  In your case the of. I’m Scottish too, but I’m also a Christian.

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.
The Attack
After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.
The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded.   The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.
The Cover Up
Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder. 

In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found athttp://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf

“WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, were started by Christians” – are you completely insane?

LOS NOTHING in that baseless rant but one baseless, wrong, and false claim after another baseless, wrong, and false claim. How about you do some ACTUAL research next time before making claims that have PROVEN by ACTUAL DOCUMENTED FACTS to be false and proving yourself to be the TOTAL idiot that you are. News flash, ignorant buffoon, during Nazi Germany, NOT A SINGLE Christian was slaughtering the Jews. That is on the shoulders of an ATHEIST Germany, moron. During the Crusades, though Jews were persecuted, Christians were NOT slaughtering them. Christians were, however, slaughtering MUSLIMS. The slaughtering of Muslims to actually SAVE Israel was the whole point of the Crusades, ignoramus. Look it up. It’s in pretty much EVERY history book. By the way, you know all the “Pornography, homosexuality legalized, pedophilia, prostitution, std’s, alcohol, drugs, murders, rape, racism, anti-semitism, pre-marital sex people fornicating like animals left and right before marriage, the destruction of the family, no morality whatsoever, women dressing and acting like prostitutes and sex objects, gangs, and all kinds and forms of violence never before seen in the history of man” you mention? You want to know where all that is coming from? News flash, idiot, most of it comes from TOTAL idiots like you. Don’t even get me started on Muslims when it comes to all that, lol. You are obviously so ignorant that I’m surprised you even know how to breathe.

Also, you are TOTALLY wrong on another key point. The Palestinians are NOT actually the descendants of the original Israelites. It has been 100% PROVEN, with ACTUAL biological evidence no less, that the JEWS are the descendants of the original Israelites. This has been proven WITHOUT A DOUBT for decades. Don’t know where you’ve been, but you need to quit buying into lies that were flat out DISPROVEN decades ago.

By the way, if your narcissistic, selfish, biased, close minded, bigoted, racist, anti-Semitic rant is any indication, you have NO chance whatsoever of ending up in the latter of the 2 places you mentioned. Hope you change your stupid attitude and start to research some ACTUAL DOCUMENTED FACTS some time. Otherwise, you are one lost and TOTALLY stupid soul.

Here’s your history jackass:

Islam & African Slave Trade:-                 Muhammadan Islam institutionalized slavery.  Muhammad began to take many more slaves after he moved to Madina, and began what can only be described as the first                         Organized Crime Syndicate in history whose base and centre of operations was the Madina. Slaves were usually taken in raids on his own Quraysh tribe, on Judaized & Christian Arabs as well as any other Arabian tribe that he chose as a victim of his plunder.        In fact, the Quran allows the taking of slaves as ‘booty’, or ’reward’ for wars of aggression against any and all UNBELIEVERS (most of the human population). This has led to an enormous number of so called ’Holy Wars’ called ’Jihad’. There is and was absolutely nothing ’holy’ about these wars which are primarily to plunder, slaughter, rape, subjugate and rob other human beings of their wealth and produce.        Muhammadan Muslim states and tribes attack other non-Muslim groups to achieve these objectives. Islamic jurisprudence laid down regulations for the proper treatment of slaves.  However, incredible and heinous abuses have occurred throughout the history of Islam.INTRODUCTION-       While much has been written concerning the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, surprisingly little attention has been given to the Islamic slave trade across the Sahara, the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean.  While the European involvement in the Trans Atlantic slave trade to the Americas lasted for just over three centuries, the Arab involvement in the slave trade has lasted fourteen centuries, and in some parts of the Muslim world is still continuing to this day.CONTRASTS IN CAPTIVITY       A comparison of the Islamic slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts.  While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Islamic slave trade.  Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.       While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%.       While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.        While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.        While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.       It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions.  Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States). African Slaves       However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East.  Since at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from  1400 years of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million.  When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people. THE ABSENCE OF ARABIC ABOLITIONISTS       While Christian Reformers spearheaded the anti-slavery abolitionist movements in Europe and North America, and Great Britain mobilised her Navy, throughout most of the 19th Century, to intercept slave ships and set the captives free, there was no opposition whatsoever to slavery within the Muslim world.        Even after Britain outlawed the slave trade in 1807 and Europe abolished the slave trade in 1815, Muslim slave traders enslaved a further 2 million Africans.  This, despite vigorous British Naval activity and military intervention to limit the Islamic slave trade.         By some calculations, the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Islamic slave trade could exceed 180 million.       Nearly 100 years after President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in America, and 130 years after all slaves within the British Empire were set free by parliamentary decree, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, in 1962, and Mauritania in 1980, begrudgingly removed legalised slavery from their statute books.  And this only after international pressure was brought to bear.  Today numerous international organisations document that slavery still continues in some Muslim countries. THE ISLAMIC SLAVE TRADE       The birth of Islam and its conquests, brought about the birth of INSTITUTIONALIZED, SYSTEMATIZED and RELIGIOUSLY SANCTIONED SLAVE TRADE, on a MASSIVE & GLOBAL SCALE.         As Ronald Segal in ”Islam’s Black Slaves” documents:  ”When Islam conquered the Persian Sassanid Empire and much of the Byzantine Empire, including Syria and Egypt, in the 7th Century, it acquired immense quantities of gold from stripping churches and monasteries … either directly or by taxes, payable in gold, imposed on the clergy…. looting gold from tombs, the state encouraged the search and sanctioned the seizure, in return for a fifth (khums) of the finds.”         Segal notes:  ”Female slaves were required in considerable numbers as musicians, singers and dancers….many more were bought for domestic workers….and many were in demand as concubines (RAPE).  The harems of rulers could be enormous.  The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 – 961) in Cordoba contained over 6000 concubines. The one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many.”         The death toll from 14 centuries of the Islamic slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 140 million.       Islam’s Black Slaves also reveals that the castration of male slaves was common place.  ”The Calipha in Baghdad at the beginning of the 10th Century had 7000 black eunuchs and 4000 white eunuchs in his palace.”        It was noted that there were widespread “homosexual relations” as well.  Islam’s Black Slaves notes that Islamic teachers throughout the centuries consistently defended slavery:  ”For there must be masters and slaves.”        Others noted that blacks ”lack self-control and steadiness of mind and they are overcome by fickleness, foolishness and ignorance.  Such are the blacks who live in the extremity of the land of Ethiopia, the Nubians, Zanj and the like.”

 Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) the pre-eminent Islamic medieval historian and social thinker wrote:  ”The Negro nations are as a rule submissive to slavery, because they have attributes that are quite similar to dumb animals.”

       By the Middle Ages, the Arabic word ”abd” was in general use to denote a black slave while the word ”mamluk” referred to a white slave.  

       It is not common knowledge that the Arabic word ’ABD’ is synonymous with the meaning of SLAVE; that is, in the language of the Arabs, 

       ALL BLACK PEOPLES ARE CALLED ’ABEED’ PLURAL FOR ’SLAVES’.

       Even as late as the 19th Century, it was noted that in Mecca “there are few families that do not keep slaves; they all keep mistresses in common with their lawful wives.”

       It should be noted also, that black slaves were castrated ”based on the assumption that the blacks had an ungovernable sexual appetite.”

       When the Fatimids came to power, they slaughtered all the tens of thousands of black military slaves and raised an entirely new slave army.  Some of these slaves were conscripted into the army at age ten.  From Persia to Egypt to Morocco, slave armies from 30,000 to up to 250,000 became common-place. 

       Even Ronald Segal, who is most sympathetic to Islam and clearly prejudiced against Christianity, admits that well over 30 million black Africans would have died at the hands of Muslim slave traders or ended up in Islamic slavery. 

       The Islamic slave trade took place across the Sahara Desert, from the coast of the Red Sea, and from East Africa across the Indian Ocean.  The Trans Sahara trade was conducted along six major slave routes.  

       Just in the 19th Century, for which we have more accurate records, 1.2 million slaves were brought across the Sahara into the Middle East, 450,000 down the Red Sea and 442,000 from East African coastal ports.  That is a total of 2 million black slaves - just in the 1800′s.  At least 8 million more were calculated to have died before reaching the Muslim slave markets. 

       Islam’s Black Slaves records:  ”In the 1570′s, a Frenchman visiting Egypt found many thousands of blacks on sale in Cairo on market days.  In 1665 Father Antonios Gonzalis, a Spanish/Belgian traveller, reported 800 – 1000 slaves on sale in the Cairo market on a single day.  In 1796, a British traveller reported a caravan of 5000 slaves departing from Darfur.  

       In 1838, it was estimated that 10,000 to 12,000 slaves were arriving in Cairo each year.” Just in the Arabic plantations off the East Coast of Africa, on the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba, there were 769,000 black slaves.

Slave Markets-

       The slave market in Zanzibar sold an average of 300 slaves every day.

       In the 19th Century, the East African black slave trade included 347, 000 slaves shipped to Arabia, Persia and India;  95, 000 slaves were shipped to the Arab plantations in the Mascareme Islands.

       Segal notes “The high death rate and low birth rate among black slaves in the Middle East and the astonishingly low birth rate amongst black slave women” in North Africa and the Middle East.  ”Islamic civilization lagged increasingly behind the West in protecting public health.  

       The arithmetic of the Islamic black slave trade must also not ignore the lives of those men, women and children taken or lost during the procurement, storage and transportation.

       The sale of a single captive for slavery might represent a loss of ten in the population  from defenders killed in attacks on villages, the deaths of women and children from related famine and the loss of children, the old and the sick, unable to keep up with their captors or killed along the way in hostile encounters, or dying of sheer misery.”

       One British explorer encountered over 100 human skeletons from a slave caravan en route for Tripoli.

       The explorer, Heinrich Barth, recorded that a slave caravan lost 40 slaves in the course of a single night at Benghazi.

       The British explorer, Richard Lander, came across a group of 30 slaves in West Africa, all of them stricken with smallpox, all bound neck to neck with twisted strips of bullock hide. 

       One caravan with 3000 proceeding from the coast in East Africa, lost two thirds of its number from starvation, disease and murder.

         In the Nubian desert, one slave caravan of 2000 slaves literally vanished as every slave died.

AN EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT-

       In 1818, Captain Lyon of the Royal Navy reported that the Al-Mukani in Tripoli ”waged war on all its defenceless neighbours and annually carried off 4000 to 5000 slaves, a piteous spectacle!  These poor oppressed beings were, many of them, so exhausted as to be scarcely able to walk, their legs and feet were much swelled, and by their enormous size formed a striking contrast with their emaciated bodies.  They were all borne down with loads of firewood, and even poor little children, worn to skeletons by fatigue and hardships, were obliged to bear their burden, while many of their inhuman masters with dreadful whip suspended from their waist All the traders speak of slaves as farmers do of cattle. 

       The defenceless state of the Negro kingdoms to the southward are temptations too strong to be resisted, a force is therefore annually sent to pillage these defenceless people, to carry them off as slaves, burn their towns, kill the aged and infants, destroy their crops and inflict on them every possible misery. 

       Their slavery is for an unlimited time. None of their owners ever moved without their whips – which were in constant use. Drinking too much water, bringing too little wood or falling asleep before the cooking was finished, were considered nearly capital crimes, and it was in vain for these poor creatures to plead the excuse of being tired.  Nothing could withhold the application of the whip.  No slaves dared to be ill or unable to walk, but when the poor sufferer dies, the master suspects that there must have been something ‘wrong inside’ and regrets not having liberally applied their usual remedy of burning the belly with a red-hot iron.”

Slave Traders-

       Arab slave traders along the Ruvuma River, East Africa, 1866, axe a straggler.
Records for Morocco in 1876 show that market prices for slaves varied from £10 ($48) to £30 ($140).  Female slaves comprised the vast majority of sales with “attractive virgins” fetching between £40 to £80 ($192 – $386).  It was reported that “a considerable majority of the slaves crossing the Sahara were destined to become concubines in North Africa, the Middle East and occasionally even further afield.”

CHRISTIAN SLAVES – MUSLIM MASTERS-

CHRISTIAN SLAVES – MUSLIM MASTERS-

       Segal also observed that:  ”White slaves from Christian Spain, Central and Eastern Europe” were also shipped into the Middle East and served in the “palaces of rulers and the establishments of the rich.” 

       Muslim slave raiders kidnapped women from Europe for harems in the Middle East.
Historian Robert Davis in his book ”Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters – White Slavery In the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy”, estimates that North African Muslim pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780.  These white Christians were seized in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall.  

       Thousands of white Christians in coastal areas were seized every year to work as galley slaves, labourers and concubines for Muslim slave masters in what is today Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya.  Villages and towns on the coast of Italy, Spain, Portugal and France were the hardest hit, but the Muslim slave raiders also seized people as far afield as Britain, Ireland and Iceland.  They even captured 130 American seamen from ships they boarded in the Atlantic between 1785 and 1793. 

       According to one report, 7,000 English people were abducted between 1622 to 1644, many of them ship crews and passengers.  But the Corsairs also landed on unguarded beaches, often at night, to snatch the unwary.  Almost all the inhabitants of the village of Baltimore, in Ireland, were captured in 1631, and there were other raids in Devon and Cornwall.  

       Many of these white, Christian slaves were put to work in quarries, building sites and galleys and endured malnutrition, disease and mistreatment at the hands of their Muslim slave masters.  Many of them were used for public works such as building harbours.

       Female captives were sexually abused in palace harems and others were held as hostages and bargained for ransom.  ”The most unlucky ended up stuck and forgotten out in the desert, in some sleepy town such as Suez, or in Turkish Sultanate galleys, where some slaves rowed for decades without ever setting foot on shore.” Professor Davis estimates that up to 1,25 million Europeans were enslaved by Muslim slave raiders between 1500 to 1800.  

THE AMERICAN SLAVE TRADE-

       The West is familiar with the history of slavery in the new world.  It was sinful and terrible, and it lasted for several hundred years. It was abolished mainly through the efforts of Christians in England (Wilberforce, Clarkson) and America (the Abolitionists, primarily Protestant).

            However, few people in the west know about Muhammadan Islam and slavery.  Most would be surprised to find out that the Quran authorizes the taking of slaves as spoils of war.  From the moment that Muhammad drew his sword to rob and conquer non-Muslims to this very day, Muslims have been taking non-Muslims, and even other black Muslims, as slaves.

            Muslims were enslaving black Africans long before any slave ships sailed for the New World.  Muslims were taking and making slaves all over the lands they had conquered.

         Later, when slave ships were loaded with black slaves, often, a Muslim slave broker had the human cargo all ready to go.  American slavers rarely had to go inland into darkest Africa to capture slaves because they were already waiting there, courtesy of many Muslim rulers, and/or slave broker. 

        In many cases, if the black slaves were not sent to the New World, they were sent to the Mideast to be bought by Arabs; thousands more were sent to India and other parts of the Empire or kept by other black Muslims as slaves.

       It is extraordinary that, considering that less than 5% of all the Trans Atlantic slaves ended up in North America, the vast majority of films, books and articles concerning the slave trade concentrate only on the American involvement in the slave trade, as though slavery was a uniquely American aberration.  

       However, the vastly greater involvement of Portugal, Spain and France seem to be largely ignored.  Even more so the far greater and longer running Islamic slave trade into the Middle East has been so ignored as to make it one of history’s best-kept secrets.

       We tend to focus on what happened in North America because the United States would eventually fight a war, in part over slavery, and because of the enormous and vocal American opposition to slavery.  This was in sharp contrast to the indifference that Muslims, Africans and many Europeans evidenced towards it.

THE AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE-

       The legends of European slave raiders venturing into the jungles of Africa to capture free peoples are generally just that:  myths. 

       The embarrassing fact of history, is that the Europeans did not have to use any force to obtain these slaves.  The slaves were “sold” by their black owners.  There was no need for the slave raiders to risk their lives or venture into the jungles of Africa, they simply purchased the people from African chiefs and Muslim slave traders at the coast. 

       However, while the slave trade and slavery itself was always criticised vigorously in Britain and America, no comparable criticism was evident in the Muslim Middle East or amongst the African tribes which sold their own people, and neighbouring tribes, into slavery.  

       Almost all of the African slaves transported across the Atlantic were captured and sold by African rulers and Arab & Muslim merchants. 

       Many chiefs found it more profitable to sell their enemies, criminals and debtors than to kill or imprison them.  Many were weaker neighbouring tribes conquered for the express purpose of selling their people into slavery.  The disgraceful fact is that there were three equally guilty partners in the crime of the Trans Atlantic slave trade:  Pagan African chiefs, Muslim Arabs and Christian Europeans.

       The Trade, as it became known, involved a triangular voyage.  Slave ships sailed from Bristol or Liverpool loaded with cloths, beads, muskets, iron bars and brandy.  This merchandise was then traded in West Africa in exchange for slaves.  Mostly African chiefs sold their own people, or engaged in wars and slave raids against neighbouring tribes to capture victims for this trade.  Often professional Arab slave traders provided the victims. 

       The middle passage transported the slaves to the West Indies.  Here the slaves were sold and the ships loaded with spices, rum, molasses and sugar.  The third leg of the journey was the return to England.  The average Englishman on the street was kept in the dark as to what was actually happening on the middle passage, until, in 1785, Thomas Clarkson’s landmark study ”Slavery and Commerce In the Human Species” was first published at Cambridge.  

       According to Clarkson’s research, 10% of the slaves would normally die during the middle passage.  Strong men would fetch as much as £40 while the women and children were sold in cheap batches with the sick and weak men.  In England 18, 000 people were employed simply on making the goods to trade for slaves in Africa.  This trade constituted 4.4% of British exports.  

LIVINGSTONE’S TRAVELS-

       While the British Navy was defeating the slave trade in the Atlantic, the East African slave trade was increasing.  It was missionary explorer David Livingstone whose graphic descriptions brought the ravages of the East African slave trade to light.  His Missionary Travels and Narrative of an Expedition to the Zambezi exposed the horrors of the slave trade:  ”Two of the women had been shot the day before for attempting to untie their thongs.  One woman had her infants brains knocked out because she could not carry her load and it; and a man was dispatched with an axe because he had broken down with fatigue; those taken out of the country are but a very small section of the sufferers. 

        We never realised the atrocious nature of the traffic until we saw it at the fountain head.  ’There truly Satan has his seat.’  Besides those actually captured thousands are killed and die of their wounds and famine, driven from their villages by the internecine war waged for slaves with their own clansmen and neighbours, slain by the lust of gain, which is stimulated, be it remembered always, by the slave purchases of Cuba and elsewhere.”

A TRADE IN HUMAN MISERY-

       The British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society reported that most slaves were captured in the Lake Niassa area (Malawi and Mozambique), the Bahr El Ghazal region and in areas of Ethiopia.  Slaves were taken to East African markets like Zanzibar, Kilwa and Quelimane and then shipped to Turkey, India, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Iraq, Iran and to the islands of Pemba, Reunion and Madagascar. 

       The Anti-Slavery Reporter estimated the Muslim slave trade as exporting 63,000 slaves per year.  Some estimates went as high as 500,000 slaves exported in a single year. One researcher, Ralph Austen calculated that between 1830 and 1861 imports of slaves to the Persian Gulf averaged 3700 to 3100 per annum.  This same researcher noted that about 8855 slaves a year were retained as slaves on the East African coast as slaves of African slave masters.

       Few authors dared describe the horrors involved in the Trans- Sahara slave trade:  kidnapping and castrating young boys to be sold as eunuchs (“the living dead”) in the homes of wealthy Arab landlords and force marching young women across endless miles of scorching sand in the Sahara desert to become slave concubines, most dying in transit.  The Muslim slave trade typically dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves:  eunuchs.  Eunuchs were created by completely amputating the scrotum and penis of eight to twelve year old African boys.  Hundreds of thousands of young boys bled to death during this gory procedure.  The survival rate from this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.  These castrated boys brought the highest price at the slave market. 

SHARIA LAW AND SLAVERY-

       Islam’s Black Slaves notes:  ”the Quran stipulated that female slaves might lawfully be enjoyed by their masters [RAPED].” Muhammad himself owned many slaves, some of whom he captured in wars of conquest and some he purchased.  The names of forty slaves owned by Muhammad are recorded by Muslim chroniclers.  Islamic law (Sharia) contains elaborate regulations for slavery.  A slave had no right to be heard in court (testimony was forbidden by slaves), slaves had no right to property, could marry only with the permission of the owner, and were considered to be chattel, that is the movable property, of the slave owner.  Muslim slave owners were specifically entitled by Sharia law to sexually exploit their slaves,  including hiring them out as prostitutes.

       One reason why very little has been written about the Arab involvement in slavery is that traditional Islamic culture still condones slavery.  The Sharia, the codified Islamic law which is based upon the teachings and example of Muhammad, contains explicit regulations for slavery.  

       One of the primary principles of Islam is following the example of Muhammad ,  called the SUNNA. Whatever Muhammad did, his followers must do, what he forbade, they must forbid, what he did not forbid, they may not forbid. 

       As Muhammad himself traded in slaves and owned slaves, accumulating multiple wives, even marrying a six year old, and having concubines – slavery and the sexual exploitation of women is deeply ingrained in Islamic tradition.  Muslim nations had engaged in the slave trade for over 600 years before Europe became involved in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. 

SLAVERY TODAY-

       Almost 200 years after the British outlawed the slave trade in 1807, slave raids and the sale of slaves in Muslim markets continues in countries like Sudan.  The slave trade remained legal in Saudi Arabia until 1962, when under international pressure it was finally abolished.  However, there are persistent, credible reports, that slavery persists in Saudi Arabia, and even that slaves from Sudan are ending up in Saudi Arabia.

       Recently, a former slave from the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, Mende Nazer, had her autobiography:  ”Slave:  My True Story” published.  Mende was captured in 1992, she was first a slave to a rich Arab family in Khartoum, and then in 2002 to a Sudanese diplomat in London, from whom she escaped and sought political asylum. 

THE LAW OF LIBERTY-

       Although the Hebrew Bible provided for slavery for criminals and insolvent debtors, kidnapping and enslaving law-abiding people incurred the death penalty.  

 Exodus 21:16 ”Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.” 

       The New Testament expressly forbids both the slave trade and slavery itself. 

 1 Timothy 1:9-10 “….the Law is made not for the righteous but for Law breakers….for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers.” 

Galatians 3:28 ”There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free…..for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” 

Acts 17:26 ”From one man He made every nation of men.” 

Mark 12:30-31 ”Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.love your neighbour as yourself.” 

John 8:32 ”Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” 

2 Cor. 3:17 ”…..where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” 

Leviticus 25:10 ”…..proclaim liberty throughout the land.” 

            

            To begin with, the Quran justifies slavery, and often mentions slaves.  Here are some relevant verses:

33:50 - ”Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom Allah has given you as booty.”

            *** This verse clearly shows that Muhammadans believe that taking slaves in war was an Allah-given right.  These slaves were considered ’booty’ or the spoils of war ***

 23:5 –   ”… except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them:…”

            *** The passage’s context here (not quoted in full) details how Muslim males are allowed to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls. Implicit in this is that Muslim males had slave-concubines.  (70:30 is basically a repeat of 23:5) ***

            Ibn Sa’d's ”Tabaqat”, gives a clear description of Muhammad having sexual ‘relations’ with his Coptic slave girl, Mariya. Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts to Muhammad.  Muhammad gave Sirin to Hasan Thabit, the poet.  Ibn Sa’d says that Muhammad liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair and pretty.”  [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" (Book of the Major Classes), p151].

            Ibn Sa’d also writes that Mariyah bore Muhammad a son named Ibrahim.  He died 18 months later.  Sa’d writes:  ”If he had lived, no maternal uncle of his would have remained in bondage”, p164.  This shows that there were other Coptic slaves owned by the Muslims.

            The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for a crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master’s conditions (24:33).  [90:10 'freeing of a bondsman' refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]

            While it’s nice to allow a slave to obtain his/her freedom, (at the master’s discretion) it is tragic that the Quran allows them to be enslaved in the first place.  That’s like robbing a bank and giving some of the money back to it, and pretending one did the right thing.

            The above verses show that taking slaves was ordained by Allah, and that it was permissible for Muslim males to have sex - RAPE - with their female slaves.  It also shows that slaves were a valuable commodity to the Muslims, otherwise, Allah would not have imposed the penalty of freeing a slave to make up for a crime.

A HADITH AND SLAVERY-

            There are hundreds of Hadiths (Ahadith) that deal with slavery.  Whole chapters of Hadiths are dedicated to dealing with the taxation, treatment, sale, and jurisprudence of slaves.  In addition to this, numerous Hadiths mention slaves, and their relation to their Muslim masters.  Here is a selection of Hadiths on slaves:  [all these are from Sahih Bukhari, unless noted.]

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 3.765 Narrated Kuraib, the freed slave of Ibn ‘Abbas, that :
Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, “Do you know, O Allah’s Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?” He said, “Have you really?” She replied in the affirmative. He said, “You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.”

       *** In this case, Maimuna, the wife of Muhammad,  freed a slave girl, but Muhammad asserts that she would have gotten more (heavenly) reward if she had given the slave to one of her uncles, thus keeping the slave in continued servitude and added sexual abuse ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.67 Narrated Ibn Ishaq: 
 The Ghazwa (attack upon) Uyaina bin Hisn waged against Banu Al-Anbar, a branch of Banu Tamim.  The prophet sent Uyaina to raid them.  He raided them and killed some of them and took some others as captives.

            *** Once more, Muhammad sent out his men to attack another tribe.  They killed some of them and took others as captives.  Once again, the Muslims attacked an UNSUSPECTING neighboring tribe.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.182  Narrated Aisha: 
 ”Abu Bakr had a slave who used to give him some of his earnings.

       *** The Muhammadan Muslims did not shrink from taking some of the meager and miserably little earnings of their own slaves ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.459 Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:  
“I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus.  Abu  said, “We went out with Allah’s messenger for the Ghazwa (Piratical raid) against Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus.  So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said “How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah’s messenger while he is present among us?”  We asked (him) about it and he said “It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.”"

            *** Here, the Muhammadan Muslims AMBUSHED the Banu Mustaliq, and took slaves.  The female slaves were distributed as booty to the Muslim pirates.  Being away from home, the plunderers became horny, and wanted to have sexual relations with the newly captured female slaves.  They went to Muhammad and asked about coitus interruptus.  He told them not to practice that, but to complete the sexual act with the slaves. 

        Related Hadith show that they didn’t want to get the women pregnant because they wanted to be able to sell them later on.  Under Islamic law they were not allowed to sell pregnant female slaves. Their concern was purely ’economic’ and not compassionate. 

            In effect, Muhammad SANCTIONED the RAPE of female prisoners ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.512  Narrated Anas:
  “…..The prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives….”

         *** This Hadith details the UNPROVOKED attack on the UNSUSPECTING Jews of Khaibar.  Again, many of the women and children were taken and made into slaves ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.541 Narrated Abu Huraira:  
When we conquered Khaibar, we gained neither gold nor silver as booty, but we gained cows, camels, goods and gardens.  Then we departed with Allah’s apostle to the valley of Al-Qira, and at that time Allah’s messenger had a slave called Midam who had been presented to him by one of Banu Ad-Dibbab.  While the slave was dismounting the saddle of Allah’s messenger an arrow the thrower of which was unknown, came and hit him…..

         *** Another slave to be added to Muhammad’s collection ***

 Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.637    Narrated Buraida:  
The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus).  I said to Khalid, “Don’t you see this (i.e. Ali)?”  When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him.  He said, “O Buraida!  Do you hate Ali?”  I said, “Yes”  He said, “Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus.”

         *** Buraida hated Ali because the latter had RAPED a slave girl from the booty – before it was ’rightly’ distributed among the Muslim mercenaries - which was considered ’illegal’ and ’unjust’ in the context of the 
Robber Fraternity.

       None the less, Muhammad approved the RAPE despite the fact that Ali had broken one of the CARDINAL rules that Muhammad himself had ’ordained’ regarding all BOOTY ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 7.137  Narrated Abu al-Khudri:
  “We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them.  So we asked Allah’s messenger about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.”"

            Here, Muhammadans had taken female slaves, and had sex with them, actually RAPED them.  Muhammad approved of this.  He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.

 Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.346& 344 Narrated byAnas
I was a young boy when I once was walking with Allah’s Apostle . Allah’s Apostle entered the house of his slave tailor and the latter brought a dish filled with food covered with pieces of gourd. Allah’s Apostle started picking and eating the gourd. When I saw that, I started collecting and placing the gourd before him. Then the slave returned to his work. Anas added: I have kept on loving gourd since I saw Allah’s Apostle doing what he was doing.

       *** This Hadith shows that another one of Muhammad’s slaves was a 
tailor ***

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.734    
 ”….At the door of the [Muhammad's] room there was a slave to whom I went and said, “Ask the permission for me to enter”…..

            *** It is obvious from this final part of avery long Hadith, that the quote reveals that Muhammad has slaves working in his household ***

  Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 9.462 Narrated Aisha: 
 ”…Furthermore you may ask the slave girl who will tell you the truth”.  So the prophet asked Barira (my slave girl)…

         *** Even Aisha, had her own slave ***

         Also,  Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith  1.29, 439, 661; 7.845, 341, 352, 371, 410, 413, 654,  and  9.293, 296, 277, 100, 80; all of these Hadiths show that many other Muslims owned slaves.

Furthermore in the following Hadiths from Abu Dawud:

Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 597 – #1814- 
 ”(Abu Bakr) began to beat him (Bakr’s slave) while the apostle of Allah was smiling and saying:  ”Look at this man who is in the sacred state, what is he doing?” 
[The note for this Hadith says "Abu Bakr beat his slave to teach him sense of responsibility."]

Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 683 – #2074- 
 ”Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying:  ”If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void.”

Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 1317 – #3499, 3500-
“The contractual obligation of a slave is three days.  If he finds defect in the slave within three days, he may return it without any evidence;  if he finds a defect after three days, he will be required to produce evidence that the slave had the defect when he brought it.”

         *** Contractual Obligation of a Slave as between the seller and the buyer of slaves ***

From Al Muwatta of Imam Maliki, here are a few more examples:

Chapter 368 - “Who takes the Property of a Slave When He is Freed”

Chapter 371 - “Slaves who cannot be set Free in the Obligatory Freeing of a Slave”

Chapter 383 - “Cohabitation with a Slave Girl after Declaring Her ’Mudabbir’” (free after the master’s death).

Chapter 387 - “Who is Entitled to the Property of a Slave or Slave Girl at the time of Sale.”

Chapter 388 - “The Limit of Responsibility of the Seller in the Sale of a Slave or Slave 
Girl”

Chapter 390 - “On the Conditional Sale of a Slave Girl.”

       *** The reader should be made aware that the chapters mentioned above, show just how intrinsic slavery was during Muhammad’s life, and the lives of the Caliphs.  

       Al Muwatta is a book of Islamic jurisprudence.  It is full of regulations on dealing with slaves.  Slaves were used throughout the Islamic world.  Judging from the amount of Hadiths here, it is safe to assume that a great number of Muslims owned slaves.

            There are additional chapters dealing with slaves.  This list is enough to show that dealing with slaves during and after Muhammad’s time was INSTITUTIONALIZED and EXTENSIVE ***

 From other Islamic writings on Muslims owning slaves :

            Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, a great scholar and Islamic historian says in his book ”Zad al-Ma’ad”, part 1, p160:

       ”Muhammad had many male and female slaves.  He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more slaves than he sold.  He once sold one black slave for two.  His purchases of slaves were more than he sold.”

            “Muhammad had a number of black slaves.  One of them was named ’Mahran’.  Muhammad forced him to do more labor than the average man. Whenever Muhammad went on a trip and he, or his people, got tired of carrying their stuff, he made Mahran carry it.  Mahran said “Even if I were already carrying the load of 6 or 7 donkeys while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or his shield or his sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load”.  Tabari and Jawziyya both record this, so Islam accepts this as true.”

            Ali, who was Muhammad’s son-in-law, whipped Aisha’s slave in front of Muhammad to make her talk about the adultery charges against Aisha.  Muhammad did not say a word to Ali about beating the female slave. 
 [From the Sirat Rasulallah, p496.]

            In the Sirat Rasulallah, Muhammad massacred 800 males and took their women and children as slaves.  He kept at least one Jewish female named Rayhana as his concubine, and gave the rest away to the Muslims.  The Sirat says (p466): 
“Then the apostle divided the property, wives, and children of Banu Qurayza among the Muslims….and

       ”Then the apostle sent Sa’d Zayd brother of Ashhal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horse and weapons.”

            *** There is only one clear conclusion based entirely upon the Islamic records themselves:  MUHAMMAD WAS A SLAVER.  

       The names of many of Muhammad’s slaves are detailed in Muslim
 writings ***
 

 The Rights of Slaves under Islam-

            According to the Hughes Dictionary of Islam, slaves had few civil or legal rights.  For example:

a)         Muslim men were allowed to have sex anytime with females slaves - Sura 4:3, 4:29, 33:50.

4:3        If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess.  That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice. 

4:29        O ye who believe! eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good-will: nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful.

33:50        O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts who migrated (from Mecca) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess in order that there should be no difficulty for Thee.  And Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. 

b)         Slaves are as helpless before their masters as idols are before Allah - Sura 16:75

16:75        Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; he has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favors from ourselves and he spends thereof (freely) privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means); praise be to Allah.  But most of them understand not.

c)         According to Islamic Tradition, people at the time of their capture were either to be killed, or enslaved.  Shows you that they were at the bottom of the barrel to start with.

d)         According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves were merchandise. The sales of slaves was in accordance with the sale of animals.

e)         Muhammad ordered that some slaves who were freed by their master be 
RE-ENSLAVED.

f)          It is permissible under Islamic law to whip slaves.

g)         According to Islam, a Muslim could not be put to death for murdering a slave.  
(Ref. 2:178 and the Jalalayn confirm this).

h)         According to Islam, the testimony of slaves is not admissible in court. 
( Ibn Timiyya and Bukhari confirm this)

i)          According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves cannot choose their own marriage mate.
(Ibn Hazm, vol. 6, part 9)

j)          According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves can be forced to marry who their masters want. 
(Malik ibn Anas, vol. 2, page 155).

            Slavery continued in Islamic lands from about the beginning to this very day.  Muslim rulers always found support in the Quran to call ’jihad’, partly for booty, part for the purpose of taking slaves.  

       As the Islamic empire disintegrated into smaller kingdoms, and each ruler was able to decide what Islam’s theology really meant.  Usually, he always found it in support of what he wanted to do.  Their calls of jihad against their neighbor facilitated the taking of slaves for Islam.  The Quran and Islamic jurisprudence support the taking of slaves, so, those petty Muslim rulers were following the Quran whenever they needed slaves.

 

Who can be made a slave in Islam-

1)         Islam allows Muslims to make slaves out of anyone who is captured during war.

2)         Islam allows for the children of slaves to be raised as slaves

3)         Like #1, Islam allows for Christians and Jews to be made into slaves if they are captured in war.  After Muslim armies attacked and conquered Spain, they took thousands of slaves back to Damascus.  The key prize was 1000 virgins as slaves.  They were forced to go all the way back to Damascus.

4)         Christians and Jews, who had made a treaty with the ruling Muslims could be made into slaves if they did not pay the “protection” tax.  This paying for ‘protection’ was just like paying a Mafia racketeer.  This allowed Muslim rulers to extort money from non-Muslim people.

From where did the slaves of the Muslims come ?

            Although Muslims took slaves from all over the lands they conquered, many of the Muslim slaves were black Africans.  They were forced to do the harshest labor.

            There was a famous black slave revolt in Iraq where thousands of black slaves revolted and killed tens of thousands of Arabs in Basrah.  These slaves were forced to work in the large Muslim saltpeter mines.  During their revolt, they conquered the city of Basrah, in Iraq.  They conquered city after city, and they couldn’t be stopped.  Their uprising and drive for freedom lasted for about 11 years.  ["The History of Islam", Robert Payne, p.185.]

            As the Muslim armies continued to conquer diverse lands, they acquired many slaves.  Bernard Lewis in ”The Arabs in History” writes:  ”polytheists and idolaters were seen primarily as sources of slaves.”

            In the early years of the Arab conquests, vast numbers of slaves were acquired by capture.  C.E. Bosworth in ”The Islamic Dynasties” writes:  ”the use of this labor enabled the Arabs to live on the conquered land as a rentier class and to exploit the economic potential of the rich Fertile Crescent.”

            Ibn Warraq writes:  ”Arabs were deeply involved in the vast network of slave trading – they scoured the slave markets of China, India, and Southeast Asia.  There were Turkish slaves from Central Asia, slaves from the Byzantine Empire, white slave from Central and East Europe, and Black slaves from West and East Africa.  Every city in the Islamic world had its slave market.”

Slavery in modern Islam today-

            Muhammad did say that slaves should be treated fairly.  But they were still a Muslim’s property.  Just as abuses occurred under Christianity, so too, many abuses occurred, and still occur under Islam.  The difference between the two is that Islam ordains the taking of slaves during war or raids for plunder, thus perpetuating slavery.  Christianity does not.  
In slavery’s perpetual existence, Islam has seen great abuses of slaves.

            Everyone knows about the abuses of slaves in the new world.  What do you know about the abuses of slaves under Islam?  There are three very good books on slavery and Islam. 

1)         ”Slavery and Muslim Society in Africa”, by Allan Fisher, pub in 1971.

2)         “The Slave Trade Today” by Sean O’Callaghan, pub in 1961.

 3)      ” The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa” by John Alembillah Azumah, Oneworld Publications, 2001.

            These books really are astounding eye-openers to how terrible slavery under Islam was and still is.  I use the present tense, because it is obvious that these abuses continue to this day.

           Here are a number of other references concerning slavery in Islam.  A general survey is Hughes Dictionary of Islam.  It notes a few basic points:

i)         Slaves have no civil liberty, but are entirely under the authority of their owners.

ii)         Slavery is in complete harmony with the spirit of Muhammadan Islam.  Islam did make life better for the average slave, but Muhammad intended it to be a perpetual institution.

iii)         Hughes also says that it is a righteous act to free a slave. I just find it hard to understand that the god who sanctioned Muhammad to take slaves later tells him it’s good to free slaves?

            In ’The Slave Trade Today’, Sean O’Callaghan toured the Mideast and Africa and covertly visited many slave markets.  Since Islam allows for slavery and slave trading, he was able to see much of the real world of Islamic slavery.  Remember O’Callaghan saw this less than 40 years ago.  This still continues today, albeit more discreetly.

In Djibouti he writes:

            “Ten boys were ranged in a circle on the dais (used to display the slaves), their buttocks toward us.  They were all naked, and I saw with horror that five had been castrated.  The (slave dealer) said that usually 10% of the boys are castrated, being purchased by Saudi homosexuals, or by Yemenis, who own harems, as guards.” p 75

            “Why had the girls (female slaves who had just been sold) had accepted their fate without a murmur, the boys howled and cried?”  ”Simple” said the Somali, we tell the girls from a very early age  - 7 or 8 that they are made for love, at age NINE we let them practice with each other, and a year later with the boys”.

In Aden he writes:

            “The Yemeni told me that the girls (slave girls used as prostitutes) were encouraged to have children, especially by white men.  For if a slave girl had a white child, she was given a bonus of 20 pounds when the child was taken from her”.    As you can see, the child of a slave remained a slave, the owner could sell the child and make money.  This sale is allowable under Islamic law.

            “Only one offense was severely punished; attempting to escape from the harem… The wretched girl was stripped and spread eagle in the courtyard…punishment was administer by a eunuch, a huge powerful Negro who seemed to enjoy his task.  70 lashes were given.”

            “Because of this (the fact that eunuchs can perform sexually), the eunuch often has his penis removed as well as his testicles”!  This is also legal under Islamic law, since it is preparing the slave for service.

In Saudi Arabia he writes:

            ‘The slave population was estimated at 450,000″!.  ….Slave auctions are no longer held regularly, only in an alley in Mecca.”

            ‘I was awakened by shouts and screams coming from the courtyard.  Rushing to the window I looked down to see a dozen slaves being herded through a door at the far end of the yard.  They were being driven in like cattle by three hefty guards armed with long lashed whips.  Even as I watched, one of the poor wretches, a Sudanese girl with huge breasts, received a savage lash across her naked buttocks let out a shriek of agony’

            ‘As the next slave was led in, a murmur of excitement went up among the buyers and they crowded closer around the rostrum.  He was a slender boy of about 12 years old with beautiful classical Arab features.  Although much has been written about Arab brotherhood and solidarity, I knew that the Arab has no compunction in enslaving his fellows should they fall into his hands.

            The boy was naked and tried to cover his privates with his little hands and he ran up the steps of the rostrum……there is an age old saying among the Bedouin:  ”A goat for use, a girl for enjoyment, but a boy for ecstasy”.  He (the now purchased slave boy) was claimed by a tall bearded Arab who led him from the rostrum with an arm around his waist”.
     
               This is just a portion of what O’Callaghan saw.  This happens because Islam has made slavery not only legal but sanctioned by Allah.  Yes, some of this is against Islam, but because Islam has made it into an institution, abuses will occur.

        You must remember that this happened just 35 years ago or so, and it is  still happening today.

            It also should be noted that as the slaves get too old to perform service or sexually satisfy their masters, their masters ’manumit’ the slaves.  Now, aged, worn out, they are put out on the streets to fend for themselves. These ex-slaves are left to fend for themselves.  Their former owner has committed a great, righteousness act in freeing a slave!  He gets rid of the burdensome slave, and gets a bonus in heaven.  What a ’religion’.

 
            In Fisher’s book, other observations are recorded:

In Mecca:

       ”We take note of 20 tall Negroes in turbans walking near the Kaba.  They are eunuch slaves and are employed as police in the great Mosque.  There are about 50 of them all together.”

            “The streets are full of slaves… we see a few old slave women.  They are recognized by the poverty of clothing… but we see nothing of the younger women slaves who are kept in the houses of the city.”

            “As we move along we see two or three very old men and women who look like black skeletons.  If we go to the mosque at sunrise we shall see some of these, if we go at sunset they will be there too, and if we pass by at midnight, we shall see them there still .. Sleeping on the stones in their rags.  They have no home but the mosque, and no food but what they receive in alms; (they were) turned out to seek the bounty of Allah, as their masters would say.”

            Speaking of how Saudi obtains so many black slaves:  ”they (the slave traders) pose as Muslim missionaries who guide their compatriots (black African Muslims), to the Holy Places of Islam, to make the Pilgrimage, and be instructed in the Quran in Arabic.” 
 Once transported, they are made into slaves.

            “So with the connivance of the Saudi authorities the ancient trade in black ivory is perpetuated in our time in spite of the international conventions”.

            Fisher also notes that white slaves are most highly prized.

            Another interesting comment made, is that there were regions in black Africa that Muslim missionaries wouldn’t go into.  The reason is that if those blacks became Muslim, they could no longer enslave them.  So, the Muslims banned spreading the word of Islam among certain black tribes.  It was from these tribes that local Muslim rulers would harvest slaves, and sell them throughout the Islamic world.

            Time and time again, slavery in Islam is abused.  The west has finished with slavery, Islam continues it, and with that, the abuses go on.

            There have been numerous articles written by every form of press on Islamic slavery in Sudan.  Basically, southern Sudanese, who are not Muslim, are attacked, and rounded up, and sold into slavery.  Anyone willing to do a search at a library could find these articles quite easily.

            Lastly, in one of Tony Brown’s Journal show which was covering the slavery existing in Muslim lands today, the torture of slaves, the hobbling by breaking the young boys ankles, the seizure of Negro lands by Arabs, etc.  Anyone is able to call the show and order this tape.  A Negro Muslim from Mauritania was on the show.  He described what the Arabs in Mauritania were doing to the Negroes (all Muslim) there.  Recent human rights publications have also stated that the same is happening in Mali.  Arab Muslims are forcibly taking land, and enslaving Negro Muslims there. 

            Islam, when compared to Christianity is a step backwards; a step into ”justification” of the enslavement of others.

The emancipation of slaves is recommended by Muhammad, but the recommendation applies exclusively to slaves who are of the Muhammadan faith. 

       He is related to have said: “Whoever frees a Muslim slave Allah will redeem that person from hell-fire member for member.” (Mishkat book xiii c xix.). 

       It is therefore laudable in a man to release his slave or for a woman to free her bond woman, in order that they may secure freedom in the next world. (Hidayah, vol I, p 420.)

       *** The greatest evil and tragedy of  Islam & Slavery of TODAY is the almost total lack of exposure by the major media outlets in the West, as if these human abuses do not exist.

       Even in the so called UN, this subject is swept under the carpet.

       The media, many Western politicians, many of the Christian clergy and almost ALL of the Muhammadan world exhibit an OBSCENE degree of  HYPOCRICY and a DEPRAVED PATHOLOGICAL INDIFFERENCE to reality, facts, morality, mercy, compassion & justice. 

       Their DEAFENING SILENCE is a measure of their TOTAL CONSENT at these ATROCITIES ***

http://inthenameofallah.org/Islam%20&%20African%20Slave%20Trade.html 

My understanding was that the subject matter of this blog is in response to the Colorado shooting spree and how it may relate to terrorism? How does the subject relate to WWII, Vietnam, Christians and slaves???

Google MKUltra.

Why would you need to discuss THe batman movie politically.  Its a movie……

I hope you are not talking about Rush Limbaugh, ridiculous comment on the character Bane…

I agree “keep calm and carry on”.  

The “2 americans die” stat is post-9/11 which I should have pointed out. And speaking of 9/11, the facts of what happened that terrible day are still to be fully know. As conspiracies go there’s a lot more going on with that story than any happening Muslim invasion of the US. 

Back to this terrible story, maybe you could explain why this guys neighbourhood wasn’t targeted by Drone strikes, since he’s a terrorist ?

Nice to see a fellow Jock here! You noticed I’m a non-believer then. I was brought up as a Christian and most of my values ultimately come from there  i.e. don’t kill, steal, be nasty to people, have humility, try to live in peace, all men created equal, help others less fortunate etc etc. 

That to me is why Religions exist- created as a guide to living side by side without killing and nicking each others stuff. And of course as a comfort in the face of demise. 

Ultimately, by applying logic, the fact that there are so many different religions with so many different Gods, is proof to me that there is no God of any sort. Why should yours be ‘the one’ ?

I’m not denying any believers, ones faith is personal. But no-one, on any side should use their Holy Book to persecute others, steal from them, kill them, terrorise them, or kick them off their land. And that’s largely what they’re used for. 
You must be a blue-nose ?

“If we start saying everything is terrorism it will have disastrous consequences.”

I think that particular Horse may have already bolted..

I guess it’s all loosely related to how one defines ‘terrorism’, but there’s certainly been digression.

The slaves post was a shocker though !

Yup, I am a fellow Jock. …I am of the Morrison Clan. My kilts stay hung in my closet though.
No, I am not Catholic.
Jesus says a man must be born again of the spirit to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So I am a Born Again Christian.
You say that your Christian upbringing gave you values from it i.e. don’t kill, be nasty to people, have humility, try to live in peace etc.
I have to say I haven’t really noticed that from many of your post. Just an observation.
My God and faith differentiates itself from all others in the fact that it is the ONLY one to claim A RISEN SAVIOR!
My God says that if you seek Him with your whole heart, He is faithful and just and will lead you into all truth.
I wish you well and you will be in my prayers.

Yes, and the fact that not very many Americans dying after 9/11 due to terrorism means that the US Government is ACTUALLY DOING THEIR JOB in that respect. Apparently, you flat out IGNORED what the government is doing to actually PROTECT Americans from terrorism these days. Nice of you to TOTALLY overlook a key DOCUMENTED FACT like the TOTAL idiot that you are.

And no. The facts of what happened on that terrible day are NOT still to be fully known. You see. I know EVERY SINGLE fact of what happened that terrible day. Osama bin Laden, who was wanted by EVERY SINGLE law enforcement agency on the ENTIRE planet at the time, put a group of Islamic terrorists together. He used that group to invade the US using our extremely lax immigration system. That group of Islamic terrorists got themselves some flight lessons. They than boarded 4 passenger airliners with the sole intention of hijacking them into heavily populated and very influential buildings. These Islamic terrorists did just that and ended up killing about 3,000 INNOCENT people, not all of them Americans mind you, because of it. These ARE the facts as DOCUMENTED BY EVERY SANE, HONEST, AND INTELLIGENT INDIVIDUAL ON THE ENTIRE PLANET. Any nut case who says there’s more to the story is NOTHING more than a TOTAL idiot at best who chooses to TOTALLY ignore VERY WELL DOCUMENTED FACTS.

Why would the guy’s neighborhood be targeted by drone strikes? The US government doesn’t actually target INNOCENT people, moron. The US government would NOT have targeted this guy’s neighborhood with drone strikes unless his ENTIRE neighborhood was known to harbor terrorists. The US government definitely wouldn’t do so anyway considering that the US government would NEVER target its own land in such a way. You may want to get your head out of your rear end there, buffoon, because you have just proven yourself to be a massive idiot.

You tell him. How are you doing?

Is vacmancan still here gee I see he has not changed much. 

Oh, I’m doing great. How about you?

Don’t think he ever will, lol.

I am fine. I will be going away until after the elections but I felt the need to speak on this subject and to talk to some old friends. These elections burned me out with all the infighting then I started acting like everyone else so I am taken a break to find my center again all most their but I need more work. I following you and might chime in from time to time.
I don’t understand how someone could kill random people. You know how I feel about the death penalty but this guy deserves it. He had such potential as a scientist and could of help people instead of kill them it such a waste. Then you got the idiots trying to polarize this and turn it into an argument for taken our second amendment away. I feel it dishonors the people who died and I bet their families are not asking themselves about banning guns but why did this happen.

I am shock he didn’t add about Jesus loving the 99ers as well.

I’ll no’ argue wi’ thawt !
Take Care.

 Hitler offered free beer and hot dogs at his rallies and played up prejudice that already existed against the jews.  not hypnotizing, not event close, the populace was more than willing and once it became evident the jews were being slaughtered they weren’t in a position to do much about it if they had wanted to.  and the government hypnotized this guy to do this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.

Yes and yes.  I don’t doubt they would point to this as evidence that gun control should be increased but they wouldn’t go to all this trouble to make it happen and even if they were willing to do this our government isn’t that good.

 that bastard also probably picked the dark knight rises premier date…now to find out what the joker connection has to do with this, plus why Aurora colorado?

Hay One Man Army do you want my email? Go to friends and pm Sandie she will give it to you.

The death penalty is there for people like this. The death penalty, when used properly, can actually work. That’s why I’m for it in the right circumstances.

Uhm, no. Hitler BRAINWASHED his people against the Jews. I don’t know what your definition of brainwash is, but brainwashing is just a form of hypnosis, so yes, Hitler actually DID hypnotize his people against the Jews. The prejudice against Jews existed because of, guess why, HITLER. Go figure.

Well, technically Jesus does love the 99ers. He loves everyone, after all.

Hitler didn’t create prejudice against the jews. He capitalized on it and shared it himself.

Uhm, there wasn’t as much prejudice against Jews in Germany until Hitler came along, so yes, Hitler actually DID create the prejudice against Jews. If Hitler didn’t rise to power, there would have been no holocaust. Hitler brainwashed, or HYPNOTIZED, the German people against the Jews. This is a documented historical fact, for crying out loud.

Uhm, there wasn’t as much prejudice against Jews in Germany until Hitler came along, so yes, Hitler actually DID create the prejudice against Jews. If Hitler didn’t rise to power, there would have been no holocaust. Hitler brainwashed, or HYPNOTIZED, the German people against the Jews. This is a documented historical fact, for crying out loud.

It is sad when it takes something like this to get you to realize that about the death penalty. Have you ever listen to the misfit podcast. The one they had today was pretty good. Made some good points about gun control and Obama you did not build that stupidity. http://misfitpolitics.co/2012/07/podcast-030-i-didnt-make-this-podcast/

No enough to kill them all, but the anti-Jewish prejudice had been all over Europe for centuries. Hitler capitalized on that and took it to a new level. It takes a lot more than prejudice to get a holocaust. There was prejudice and Hitler made it into hate with enough people and enough BS explanations for what was really happening to the Jews that the holocaust was able to happen.

Hitler made it into hate whit his, you guessed it, HYPNOTIZING the German people to hate them. So, again, he hypnotized his people.

Maybe later. Never have time to spend almost an hour listening to anything on the internet. A 53 minute podcast is just too long for me, lol. I’m sure you understand. Still, though, as long as the death penalty is properly utilized and does NOT get misused, as can happen on occasion, it will rid this world of those tearing us down. It will make this world a better, safer place. I am against murder. The death penalty is not really murder, though, as many idiot leftists believe. It is punishment. It is punishment for wrongdoing. That’s not murder in my book.

Gun control is just stupid. Just about EVERY place that has ever enacted stricter gun control has just seen violent crimes due to guns go up. That’s the case for Canada. That’s the case for Europe. If it didn’t work in Canada and didn’t work in Europe, why in the world would it all of a sudden work in the US? Isn’t that the definition of crazy, lol. Gun control doesn’t work simply because gun control CANNOT work. An unarmed public will be the easiest of targets to the heavily armed criminals who care nothing for laws. Our gun violence is high enough in this country as it is. We don’t need it to go up any more with stricter gun laws.

The last 15 minutes made me laugh so hard. It talked about that new Obama propaganda piece the Obama effect and it only made 83,000 in its first night. You would think that would be some sort of record LOL! About gun bans I ran on to this article that makes a great case on why we should keep the second amendment. http://misfitpolitics.co/2012/07/the-one-still-breathing/ Oh the local left winger a socialist European from England made so of the most idiotic argument in the history of arguments if I can’t see it it’s not their lunacy.
Too bad Mansion got away from the death penalty if only he was tried in Texas.

not in the way as it was suggested on here in the context of the idea that Obama would have this guy hypnotized to do this so they could push gun control. In the context your using this it could be more put as manipulated, convinced, encouraged (depending on how much faith you really have in the feelings of the German people before Hitler entered the political scene). Hitler did not literally hypnotize people in the way the shooter would have had to be hypnotized (which isn’t even possible) to have his mind controlled and be instructed to commit the shooting.

Uhm, if you think it is not possible to hypnotize a person in such a way that the shooter would have to be hypnotized, you are an absolute moron who has absolutely NO clue about hypnosis. ANYONE on the planet can hypnotize ANYBODY else to do ANYTHING as long as the one being hypnotized is in the right state of mind. To say it isn’t even possible to hypnotize a person in such a way proves only your lack of knowledge of hypnosis. Please, don’t tell me you buy into the trash that people cannot be hypnotized to work against their will because that simply is NOT true. That is merely a plot device for certain fictional stories.

science says you can’t do it. it’s been tried. Mythbusters tried it, couldn’t do it. there is a stronger response to suggestion, but no one can be hypnotized against their will.

Actually, science does NOT actually say you can’t do it. Pseudo-science, on the other hand, does. People can be hypnotized against their will all the time if they are in the right state of mind. It happens just about all the time, for crying out loud. You apparently have absolutely NO clue about hypnosis whatsoever.

http://phys.org/news144495604.html
you can do it other ways but not through hypnosis the way the shooter would have had to have been controlled, and idea the government did that is ridiculous, let alone hypnotize an entire nation as you would suggest.
manipulation, and convincing a willing populace with a bit of mob mentality taking over.

Besides that, Mythbuster? Really? You do realize that Mythbusters is NOT really a scientific show, don’t you? I actually like the show, but I know better than to take their conclusions seriously. I’ve poked holes in several of their conclusions in the past. They are NOT scientific. They are, however, entertainment. I don’t care if Mythbusters tried it and couldn’t do it. There’s a lot Mythbusters tried and couldn’t do simply because they did NOT test ALL POSSIBLE variables.

Uhm, no. You CAN do it through hypnosis. Skilled hypnotists do it ALL THE TIME, for crying out loud. You still have absolutely NO clue about hypnosis if you think it can’t be done when it has literally ALREADY BEEN DONE by ACTUAL hypnotists who ACTUALLY know what they’re doing. You are still buying into the TOTALLY idiotic belief that you can’t hypnotize someone against their will when literally all of the science on the subject says you can as long as the one being hypnotized is in the right state of mind.

I know they aren’t scientific i just threw then in for the hell of it, they were part of a list.

Skilled hypnotists controlled entire nations?
Skilled hypnotists hypnotize willing individuals and have no control on them post hypnotizing. And even willing not everyone can be hypnotized.
I’m talking about stuff, found neuroscience, all you say is NO. it’s like reasoning with a three year old. And I’m sorry santa doesn’t exist

Well, Hitler proved himself a skilled hypnotist considering the fact that he literally hypnotized MILLIONS of people to do his will.

And I’m talking about what ACTUAL hypnotists have ACTUALLY done. Since ACTUAL hypnotists have ACTUALLY hypnotized people against their will, that eliminates any impossibility. You see, for something to be impossible, it means it CANNOT be done under ANY circumstances. However, since ACTUAL SKILLED hypnotists have ACTUALLY hypnotized people against their will, it isn’t impossible whatsoever. And according to ALL of the science on the matter, people can be hypnotized against their will all the time as long as they are in the right state of mind.

Also, you are incorrect when you state that hypnotists have no control on those they are hypnotizing post hypnosis. A lot of hypnotists actually DO still have control post hypnosis. It all depends on the hypnosis itself and what goes on throughout it.

By the way, I’m talking about found neuroscience too, and that found neuroscience actually proves you 100% wrong. Sorry there.

Here’s a site.

http://www.wikihow.com/Hypnotize-Someone

It says, and I quote, “Though not impossible, it is extremely difficult to hypnotize someone covertly or against their will. Although covert approaches can work occasionally with an unsuspecting person who is caught by surprise, much more often than not, people will catch on to what you are trying to do. They will either laugh at you, or become angry for insulting their intelligence, and/or suspect that you have an ulterior motive and report you as a suspicious person.”

It’s NOT impossible. Only difficult. If the one being hypnotized is in the right state of mind, and if the hypnotist actually knows what he/she is doing, it can be done without any problems whatsoever.

to what extent is the control? like a four month plan control? controlling a nation control? It’s not to the extent at which it would have to be for what you have suggested Hitler did through hypnosis to be possible.
and wikihow isn’t exactly an ideal source. if you really want to convince you need to find some neuroscience and case studies.

By the way, I must apologize for reasoning with actual document incidents from actual hypnotists. I must apologize for reasoning with what REAL WORLD science has already shown can actually happen under the right circumstance. If reasoning with ACTUAL FACTS is like the reasoning of a three year old to you, than either you don’t know very many three year olds, or the ones you do know are actually quite intelligent.

and on a side note, next time you might want to read the whole thing
Can you make me do anything I don’t want to do? When you’re using hypnosis, you still have your own personality, and you’re still you — so you won’t say or do anything that you wouldn’t do in the very same situation without hypnosis, and you can easily refuse any suggestion that you don’t want to accept. (That’s why we call them “suggestions.”).
while what you have found flies in the face of a good bit of what i thought, this sort of takes your suggestion of the influence into serious question

i had not seen the post where you actually gave facts when i wrote that. my apologies. but facts without citations mean very little

Agreed that Wikihow isn’t really an ideal source. However, they actually DID cite their reasoning. Look up the sources they cite.

As for the extent, that depends wholeheartedly on both the ability of the hypnotist and the state of mind of the person being hypnotized. Hitler did it. If he managed it, any government on the planet can.

Look, I’m not suggesting our government hypnotized this theater nut job in order to bring stricter gun laws. I’m just saying that it’s not completely out of the realm of possibility considering the fact that it has actually already been done, and not just by Hitler either.

While that is actually true in some cases, it certainly is NOT true in ALL cases. Not everyone under hypnosis can actually refuse certain suggestions. In fact, in certain cases, the one doing the suggesting, that is the hypnotist, has been able to suggest a rape that never even actually happened while the one being hypnotized never once refused the suggestion and even post hypnosis still believe the CREATED suggestion CREATED WHOLLY by the hypnotist. Again, it depends on the skill of the hypnotist and the state of mind of the person being hypnotized.

 while I reject the idea that hypnotism is the right way to describe the manipulation Hitler had over a prejudiced and desperate German population, i certainly know a lot more about hypnotism than I did before.  However, at this juncture I highly doubt continuing this discussion would be productive for either one of us.
I am sure we will meet again

sounds reasonable enough, I wouldn’t take it as far as Hitler over an entire country for about a decade but certainly more than i ever would have believed prior to this discussion.

I don’t know any other way to describe the manipulation by Hitler than through mass hypnosis. It is very well documented how he brainwashed the German youth against Jews, Poles, gypsies, and every other race of people Hitler deemed unfit for society. Brainwashing is just a form of mass hypnosis, you know.

Look, I may have stepped over the line with this discussion as it is. For that, I must apologize. I’m only saying that it is not impossible to hypnotize someone against their will if the circumstances are right. It’s been done in the past, so it can certainly be done again. I’m also not saying our government did so in this case. That idea came from another poster. I’m just stating that our government actually can do so if given the opportunity. Let’s put it this way, though it is difficult, it isn’t flat out impossible as you assume. Under the right circumstances, if the hypnotist knew what he was doing and if the one being hypnotized is in the right state of mind, it is much more than possible. In fact, it is likely.

I had not previously considered the Hitler Youth. Now you may have a broader understanding of hypnotism than I do but I had always considered hypnotism as putting someone in an altered state of consciousness whereas brainwashing is more completely changing the perceived reality and controlling exposure to different ideas (especially among impressionable youths), which now that I’ve written it all out is rather similar to hypnotism.

i can see what your saying about the other stuff, but for something like the theater incident it seems to me like you’d need to find a very mentally unstable person and push them over the edge.

and don’t worry about stepping over the line. internet comment sections tend to bring out the worst in everybody

True. Again, though, that’s not actually what I’m saying. Another poster made that statement about the nut at the theater being hypnotized by the government. Don’t remember who it was, but in my response to him I stated that though I don’t believe that is the case here, it certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility.

i should of made that distinction.