ACLJ: We are drafting complaints against IRS agents, federal government

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GLENN: Jay Sekulow has been a frequent guest on the program and he has been a guy who has stood and his organization, the ACLJ, stood for a long time on freedom issues and stood against government tyranny. He is one of the main guys taking this case on with the IRS. Jay, welcome to the program.

SEKULOW: Hey, it’s good to be with you, Glenn. Little known in fact, I had my first job out of law school was as a trial lawyer for the office of chief counsel, the Internal Revenue Service, and the tax‑exempt group was under our jurisdiction. So ‑‑

GLENN: Holy cow. So you need it inside and out.

SEKULOW: ‑‑ (inaudible) what’s going on here and it’s more than troubling.

GLENN: Okay. So tell me, you have 27 cases, and I know that one of them is not the national 9/12 group because national, when they started to file income tax and wanted tax‑exempt status, they got hassled like crazy and they just said it’s not worth it and so it’s really hurt them on fundraising but they just did not want the hassle from the government. They knew they were being set up. So you have 27 cases now. Tell us exactly what happened and why it’s so troubling.

SEKULOW: Well, we got 27 cases. We were contacted early last year when the second round of questionnaires came from the Internal Revenue Service to these groups that were either 9/12 groups or TEA Party groups or conservative organizations and they started asking for donor information, membership lists, communications between members and members of the House and Senate or local legislative bodies and assemblies. And that’s when we realized this has taken on a whole new dimension. So we simply and aggressively wrote back to the IRS. We started representing the groups and said we’re not giving you that information, you’re not entitled to it. We gave them the list of cases why they are not entitled to it going back to the 1950s, the NAACP cases and ultimately they were ‑‑ the questions were very aggressive and we maintained a very aggressive response. 15 of the groups have been granted status exemption. But there are still 10 pending and like you just mentioned, again, we had two that said it’s not worth the hassle.

GLENN: Not worth it.

SEKULOW: Of waiting two and a half years with these intrusive questions coming in from the government. So the reaction is understandable: People got frustrated. But this was a coordinated effort in this attempt to lay the defeat of, quote, low‑level employees. I used to work for that office of chief counsel of the IRS. I was a lawyer there. The fact is the tax‑exempt group is what’s called a specialty group. They are specially trained Internal Revenue Service agents, specially trained in tax‑exempt orgs. These are not low‑level bureaucrats and now we know there were meetings as high up as the chief counsel’s office which is the highest level office inside the IRS. So that’s nonsense. And by the way, the chief counsel and the head of the IRS are both presidential appointments.

GLENN: So let me ‑‑

SEKULOW: So they can’t say this is an independent agency.

GLENN: So let me ask you this. Read the Nixon impeachment clause here. This is I think the first charge.

STU: This is out of Article II, Section 1

GLENN: Article II.

STU: Just skipping through it a little bit, but he has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law and to cause in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens income tax audits or other income tax investigations to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.

GLENN: Okay. That was against Nixon. Better, worse, or about the same?

SEKULOW: No, this is worse because this isn’t only tax information and selective prosecution. This was then going after the people that supported these organizations by requesting the donor lists, something they are not even required to put in their tax return. In other words, the tax return itself, Glenn, for these nonprofits does not include a list of your donors because they’re not entitled to it. Yet the IRS asked for that. That’s more than Nixon did by a long stretch. And that’s where the real difficulty is. We sent out a letter this afternoon or this morning to the IRS commissioner, the acting commissioner Steve Miller as well as the chief counsel demanding that the remainder of our clients be granted their exemption immediately. And I will tell you this: We are drafting complaints against the federal government and the agents involved right now. That’s in process today.

PAT: Jay, the other thing this administration is trying to do is hide behind the fact that Douglas Shulman who was the commissioner of the IRS when this happened was a Bush appointee.


PAT: Can they lay that at Bush’s feet now or ‑‑ I mean ‑‑

SEKULOW: Of course not, and this is why. He was finishing up his point in term, I think he had six months left on it when he made that statement. They probably gave him incorrect information. Obviously they did. I don’t think he was hiding the ball. I think he was based on the information he was told. What he was ‑‑ unfortunately what was actually happening was his people within the IRS themselves were engaged in this and the chief counsel is appointed by the president. So the chief counsel was an Obama appointee and the tax‑exempt head that previously worked with the FCC. So I mean, you can blame ‑‑ you can’t blame this on Bush. These letters are coming out in 2012.

GLENN: Can they separate ‑‑

SEKULOW: They can’t do it.

GLENN: Can he separate himself enough to say, “Oh, boy, they were just out of control”?

PAT: They are an out‑of‑control agency?

SEKULOW: Well, here’s the problem. You know, you’ve got Jay Carney saying it’s an independent agency which is factually not true and constitutionally not true. I mean, it’s ‑‑ the IRS is the enforcement on the treasury. Treasury’s an executive office function. So that’s bogus. That’s what they are going to try to do. The question will be whether the American people buy it. And I suspect even as you said, the mainstream media has picked this up and they are running with it. They realize that this is not just a tempest and a teapot. This teapot is boiling over.

GLENN: Okay. You said that you went back to the Fifties to see this kind of abuse. I have said since we were together as a people at the feet of Abraham Lincoln, I said this is a Civil Rights Movement, that we are going ‑‑ it will catch up to us, that we will begin to understand that the tactics used in the Fifties and in the late 1800s without the physical terror ‑‑


GLENN: ‑‑ except for the stuff that happened with the labor unions, those same kind of tactics are being used and this is a Civil Rights Movement now. Would you say that’s accurate?

SEKULOW: I think it is. And the government which, you know, unfortunately is going back to the same attempts they made to stifle these civil rights movement for African‑Americans, for black Americans in the United States led by Dr. King, they are using the same tactics. What did they ask the NAACP: Who is your members? Give us your mailing list. Who do you get money from? And the NAACP led by ‑‑ a legal charge led by Thurgood Marshall, who did a brilliant job of taking cases all the way to the Supreme Court establishing that government has no right to ask for that information. But it’s like they don’t learn. It did not work out very well for the government in the 1950s, especially these states that were trying to squash the Civil Rights Movement. And it’s not going to work out very well for the administration in 2013 either.

GLENN: Okay. So Jay, what needs to happen and how can the average American help?

SEKULOW: Well, I think there’s going to be two things that need to happen immediately. Number one, the groups that are pending need to get the recognition because as you’ve said, they are getting worn out. That needs to happen, period. So that we can get in play, and we’re demanding that. Number two, the people that are ‑‑ that have done this need to be held accountable and that will take place in two forms: Congress will have extensive oversight hearings. These aren’t just going to be photo opportunities. This is going to be the real deal and I expect many of them. And then as I said we’re looking at right now federal court action against the individual agents that were involved in this and we’ll see where that goes. So we’re looking at that right now.

GLENN: Jay, I appreciate it. I don’t know if this would fall with you, but we were targeted and nobody cared. We were targeted by the White House for smear campaigns and for boycotting of my business.


GLENN: And it was Van Jones, it was Jim Wallis, it was the labor unions, and they were all the people that were in the White House at the time that it was going on. Is there any connection at all to things like that to this?

SEKULOW: Well, I don’t ‑‑ you know, there’s another aspect to this, Glenn, and that is it’s not just conservative Christian groups that have been targeted here. There’s Jewish conservative groups that also have been targeted. So it makes sense, and they were targeted because their position on Israel was counter to what the administration’s has been. And I think you could tie what happened to you, what’s happening now, what’s happening to these conservative Jewish groups, it’s all the same.

GLENN: It is.

SEKULOW: It is stifling dissent. And when you have the government trying to stifle dissent, that’s really when ‑‑ it’s bad enough when individuals do it, but it’s a free country. Hey, I could disagree with you, you can disagree with me, but your government doesn’t get to do that.

GLENN: Most people have ‑‑ they’re worn out from this.


GLENN: Mainly from this media, that media, they just don’t care. And so the media will pick something up and then they will dismiss it and then they move on and then you never hear about it again and it just gets worse. Two questions: One, if this isn’t corrected, how dangerous is the IRS and this administration?

SEKULOW: Unbelievably so because if they can ask these groups for this kind of information, I shudder to think what they can ask of individuals on audits as well. So I ‑‑

GLENN: Especially with healthcare.

SEKULOW: If this goes unchecked, you’ve sent the IRS into a version of the CIA into the American people. I mean, the intrusiveness of it would be unprecedented.

GLENN: And what do you expect to actually happen? Do you think this is ‑‑

SEKULOW: I think heads are going to roll, Glenn. I think that ‑‑

GLENN: Serious heads or little heads?

SEKULOW: People are going to be held accountable but the question is what the White House knew when they knew I, what the appointees, the political appointees knew. But the fact that the agents themselves thought they could do this and it was sign off on by group managers and probably chief counsel’s office, that in itself raises a whole specter and I don’t know if we know yet where those consequences will be.

GLENN: Jay, thank you so much.

SEKULOW: Thanks, Glenn.

GLENN: It’s good to have you out there fighting.

  • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

    God above may the House of Obama finally come crashing down to the ground. 
    The corruption and terror coming next year with the imposition of Obama-care will give the IRS and the Democrat Socialists unprecedented power for coercion, blackmail, intimidation and for unconstitutional actions.

    • Anonymous

      You don’t like Obamacare OK I understand answer this then. What is your plan for the Government to provide Healthcare for all birth to death ? 

      • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

        Very simple – get them out of the health care system and allow the free market to work as it should w/o government interference. 

        Or is it you prefer to have the government declaring all decisions for you in regards to your health ‘womb to the tomb’ as Hillary tried?

        • Anonymous

          Let me make it simple I do not want ” health care system and allow the free market” I want the Federal Government to “PROVIDE’ Healthcare Your Social Security Card should double as your Healthcare Insurance Card is that so hard ?

          • Anonymous

            Its obvious from your post – you are already lost. Where does it say the Government has to provide Health Care to anyone? Where does it say I have to have my paycheck robbed to pay for you?

            Let me make it simple, I do not want to work to pay for your free ride. If you want cradle to grave FREE health care paid for by others hard work, then by all means head off to Cuba, Canada, England, etc…. but don’t come back once you have experienced their care.

          • Anonymous

            I have Lifetime Healthcare because I earned it by retiring after putting in 25 long hard working years in a State of NJ job. But I want everyone to have the same coverage I do if they every worked or not healthcare is no different than the firemen or police being provided to all citizens 

      • SoThere

        Who says the Government has to provide healthcare from birth to death? 

        • Anonymous

          Common Decency ever other Civilized Country does (UK, Australia, Canada, Spain, Italy) we should be too

          • Anonymous

             Sure, garak99, as soon as you earn a paycheck and I get to see you taxed 100% to pay for my kids braces.

            I guess the US is just not civilized. We still believe that people take responsibility for themselves and that no one should be forced to pay for someone else’s follies. May be one day you will move out of the cave that is the USA and be enlightened when you move to one of these Civilized Countries you have mentioned.

          • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

            garak admits in another post to have worked with the State of NJ, hence the willingness to adhere to socialist ways and means – including the usage of the IRS, law enforcement and such to intimidate political rivals. 

          • Anonymous

            Most Employers have too much control in the US. The NFL, NBA  and NHL have what comes to a 50% – 50% split with the players that is how business should be Owners get 50% and the workers share the other 50% 

          • Anonymous

             Snow, its a Corzine era Lacky afraid the gravy train is drying up.

          • Anonymous

            Makes you wonder why everyone wants to come here, doesn’t it.

          • Laura

            I agree 100%.I do not have health insurance, nor do I want anybody paying for my health insurance. I cannot think of anything more embarrassing and pathetic than for someone else to pay for my health insurance. No one needs health insurance! Try working out and taking care of yourself! How hard can it be to pay cash or use a damn credit card when visiting a doctor? Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Insurance is not needed.

          • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

            In response to your other post – the NFL, NBA and NHA are free as businesses to do such if they so choose.

            Yet you still miss the main point – business owners are putting their own capital into the business they own and run to make a profit on their investment.

            They own the business, they take the risks, and if it fails they are the ones who lose it all in the end.

            This is the concept called CAPITALISM, in which there are no guaranteed winners and losers. It is based on the effort and ability of the business owner, to succeed or fail. 

            That is something you seem to clearly miss.

          • Anonymous

            Without employees then cannot do anything

          • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

            In response to your latest post – employees are HIRED by business owners based on the skills they can provide to the needs of the business. 

            The more skill and experience, the higher the wages said employee can EARN. This is commonly based on the free market establishing what such skills are worth to a business owner.

            Unions are only in it for the power they gain and the funds they can extract and extort from business owners, and the nations governments at state and federal levels are the same.

            Based on your own words you demonstrate a following of Socialism or Communism. 

            Little wonder your confused about the way the economy works.

          • Anonymous

            “Without employees then cannot do anything”

            Employees create businesses? You really are warped. Why are we in a perpetual state of unemployed Americans if employees create businesses? Do you have a GED?

          • Mike Nelson

            You are the one the US Constitution protects me from.

            You should be ashamed of yourself, you lazy, niggardly fraud.

            “Ask NOT what your Country can do for you… ask what YOU can do for your country.”  And THAT guy was considered liberal in his time.

            You’re too lazy to even feed yourself; why should I listen to you about anything?  You WANT healthcare paid for?  WOW!  I WANT a castle!

            Some people WANT new lovers.  Some people WANT your kidneys (and mine).  Some people WANT you to stfu and earn a living.

            “Common Decency” is a reason to give you something for free?  You piece of shit.  Where’s your common decency?

          • Greg Williams

            Then move to one of them. 

          • Anonymous

            Most of these heathcare programs is either going broke or the level of care is very poor and getting poorer.

      • Anonymous

         So you are in that 25 and out crowd. Congratulations. Now the rest of us in the real world have to work 40 years before we ever see retirement. During that time, I do not want to see a dime I have earned stolen to pay for someone else’s problem – including you. I will take care of me and my family thank you.

        • Anonymous

          That is why Unions are needed to unite and tell these employers if we give you 25 Years you are going to give us a pension 

          • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

            No, the unions have become nothing more than money laundering and racketeering syndicates for the Democratic party. Their time has ended and they need to be dismantled completely.

            How many businesses have they forced into closure due to impossible demands made upon the owners? How many jobs have they destroyed due to their greed and relentless drive to ensure businesses are ground under and crushed?

          • Anonymous

             True Snow, if Unions are so great, then why are people forced to join them or they cannot work. People are forced because Unions suck.

          • Anonymous

            ??? Unions are needed so they can rip off the tax payers??? You truly believe a company is only there to serve you? You believe a company cannot do without your 25 years of service? Is your mind that broken. Have you personally ever started a business and hired people? How many jobs have you personally ever created? What happened to the people who trusted their Union at Hostess? Seems their trusted Union Strike made the company insolvent and everyone of those Union Members (that the company could not due without) lost their jobs. Now the members are suing their Union (Whaaaaa!) Congratulations – welcome to the Obama Unemployment line Ex-Hostess Workers.

          • Greg Williams

            Unions are failing because of their poor performance.  Government unions are a joke.  If they had to negotiate with the real payers of those tax dollars, you might find yourself with a much different retirement plan. 

      • Greg Williams

        It’s not the government’s responsibility to provide healthcare to us.

      • Sam Fisher

        It is called a job try it sometime. 

        • Anonymous

          If you read the thread Sam I did my part I put in 25 Years at at NJ State job and because I did I get a such to small pension (52.2%) of my last salary and healthcare. I want all to have healthcare all citizens your Social Security Cads should also be your healthcare. From your post you sounds like those people at that Republican debate when the question was asked “If someone does not have healthcare should we just let them die” and they cheered 

          • Sam Fisher

            Really is that the best you can do. Where do we get the money? You do realize even if you milk all the rich out of their money you still would not have enough money to pay for this. What is it with you liberals and thinking that people who don’t have healthcare want your help? When it means more jobs lost when it means more people living on the street. Why because you so called caring liberals just had to shove your nose in everyone’s life. I am sorry but because of you idiots my sister has to pay five times the amount for health care because of you liberals passing Obamacare people like me who was looking into healthcare before you idiots screwed with it now cannot even find affordable healthcare. I am sorry but you fucked over the poor not helped us. So take your self-righteousness and shove it up your ass.

      • Anonymous

        Why is the government supposed to provide healthcare period? Where does it say this?

  • Anonymous

    The Tea Party and other Patriot groups all included “Abolish the IRS” in there platform. The IRS in responding  said “OK Tea Party you want to play games let’s play games” Welcome to the real work of politics guys. Nothing to see here move on.

    • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

      Congratulations, once again you confirm that liberals live in dreamland.

      The IRS is being used by Obama as a weapon of political suppression and intimidation of his enemies, and you do not care.

      • Anonymous

        Do you think that maybe the ammo purchased for DHS could be re-directed to the IRS for even more intimidation? In light of this IRS scandal, I wonder and worry, as you do about Barry having a mental collapse.

        • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

          Possible, as many of the Departments seem to now possess their own law enforcement forces – right down to tactical SWAT teams.

      • Anonymous

        Look at it this way You are running for City Council or Mayor in a small town one of your campaign promises it to “get rid of all meter maids and to end parking tickets” If I am a Meter Maid you can bet your ass your car is going to receive a half dozen parking tickets every day

        • snowleopard (cat folk gallery)

          Look at the truth: your very words indicate you are fine with the usage of political and authoritarian power to control and intimidate anyone who dares to disagree with you.

          Typical government leftist.

          Government is supposed to answer to the people, not be an agency of intimidation, coercion and terror…that is communism at its finest and ugliest.

        • Anonymous

          “If I am a Meter Maid you can bet your ass your car is going to receive a half dozen parking tickets every day”

          Wow, it was not a Liberal Slip, but the white trim that reveals the flag of the Sickle and Hammer on a red background. Communism is one continent over, you must have gotten lost.

          The Meter Maid is paid for by The People and such answers to The People. Your statement is testament to why Public Unions need abolished.

      • Anonymous

         Actually it confirms Liberalism is a brain disease that eats it until any perceived intelligence is gone.

      • Anonymous

        The New York Post published the above post as a Letter to the Editor thsi morning and the Post is a Murdoch (FOX News) owned paper

    • Anonymous

      Tea Party? Your Liberal Slip is showing and its embarrassing. Oh, and your Life Time Healthcare is not free. There is no such thing as FREE. Everything that someone gets FREE is paid for by someone else. Your NJ Lifetime Health Care is paid for when the State robs its producers of their earned money for you. Economics 101, you should take the class.

    • Anonymous

      GARAK99 is wrong.Simplify the IRS code is correct.The other party wanted to abolish God from their platform;God is the free market. You need to clean your glasses.

  • Anonymous

    I give up. Everyone is not the same. Some of us work very hard.Some of us are exceptional.Some of us are lazy and are very happy to suck the government teat;never to be weaned.Pick your poison.Some of you really didn’t build anything. Anyway, hope you all succeed on building a very average America for your elderly parents andyour children.Doomslife for all!!
    Trophies for all the losers and the winners.That’s only fair. Right? Goodbye America. It was great until it was transformed into ruin.I have to go now. Got to pick up my chicken and my check.

  • Ole Oliver

    Did they also target individuals who they thought agreed with the Tea Party? I hope someone can check on that. 

  • Anonymous

    The chairman of our local tea party tried to apply for tax exempt status for our group and received one of those long invasive lists of questions.  Some of the questions were not even “answerable”.  They wanted us to provide information on things we hadn’t even considered doing yet. We decided to give up on it.   I wonder how many more groups there are out there who gave up trying to apply.  
    There are probably hundreds like us.

  • Liam Knuj

    As with ACLJ, I am a free speech advocate who has successfully caused public officials, including a corrupt judge punished.  As a result, I have been fighting case after case of IRS and state tax board attempting to extort funds with basis, one for a business they invented, that I don’t even have. 

    I found ACLJ and there site said they could represent cases like mine.  So I was impressed and excited, Im fact, I was going to press their many “DONATE” buttons to help.  However, after giving ACLJ prima facie evidence that The FEDERAL gov is retaliating against me for 6 years, one attack after the other, yet not one attack has been justified.  I am now depressed and cannot take this abuse anymore.  I am within their criteria, yet denied help.  ACLJ is a wolf I sheep clothing creating hype they will help you, but really only help favored groups, all the while claiming “NON PROFIT” status tax exemption.  Yet they are discriminating against similarly situated individual.  I am an “average American,” but thought I had “free speech.”  If ACLJ is making millions and not contributing to society by tax exemption, they have no right to selectively provide services, and bar the same to similarly situated individuals.  I’ve supported CBN for many decades, and I’m done!  Jay Seckulo’s organization is a sham making millions off the ignorance of people. 

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