How close are we to losing the American Dream?

On Wednesday’s Glenn Beck Program, Saratoga Springs Mayor Mia Love filled in for Glenn and spoke about her family’s experience with the American Dream and whether or not it continues to exist.

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Read a full transcript of her monologue below:

Hello, America, and welcome to The Glenn Beck Program and TheBlaze. My name is Mia Love, and I’m filling in today for Glenn. Tonight, my guests and I are going to discuss the American Dream, where is it? Does it still exist? Are the events that are taking place in our country right now promoting the American Dream.

I know a little bit about this. I was born to Haitian immigrants who came to this country in the early 1970s. My parents arrived. They had no earthly possessions, no home, no car, nothing aside from the clothes on their backs and $10 in their pockets, but they did have one thing that money can’t buy that America offers in abundance, real hope for a better tomorrow. They had hope that their family could find peace here in America that didn’t exist in Haiti. They had hope that through hard work and diligence, their children and grandchildren would enjoy prosperity that this nation offers.

My parents believed in the American Dream, and they set out to reach it. Before becoming citizens, they learned to speak the English language. They educated themselves on American history and the Constitution, and when they pledged their allegiance to the American flag, they understood what they were saying, and they meant every word of it.  But the dream didn’t stop there. My parents expected their three children to become productive, contributing members of society.

On the first day of college, my father came with me to orientation. I still remember how he looked. He looked at me very seriously and said, “Mia, your mother and I have done everything we could to get you here. We have worked hard for every penny. You will not be a burden to society. You will give back.” Through my parents’ example, I learned the value of hard work, education, personal responsibility. My husband and I have tried our very best to instill those same values in our children.

For the past 10 years, I have served as city council member then mayor of my city in Saratoga Springs, Utah, where I have worked hard to cut wasteful spending, balance budgets, promote economic development by reducing red tape, and creating a fiscally responsible, financially stable and sustainable city. Last year, I had the honor of receiving the Republican nomination for Utah’s fourth congressional district where we came within 768 votes of defeating a six-term incumbent Democrat.

I plan to seek the Republican nomination for my district again. Why? Because of all the lessons my parents taught me, none of them were about giving up on this country. I owe it to my children and to your children to give them a chance at their American Dream. Many in America today are concerned and rightfully so about the direction of this country, but I want you to know, and I want to encourage you, please do not give up hope. Our best days lie ahead of us.

I compare the times that we’re in today with the hardship that America has faced in its history. In the 1980s, back then times were tough like they are today. We suffered from four years of disastrous policies imposed by the Carter Administration. I think of a story of a ship, the USS Midway. The USS Midway was the longest-serving aircraft carrier of its class. While it was patrolling the South China Seas, the crew of the Midway observed a small leaky boat crammed full of refugees from Indochina.

Hoping to reach America, the refugees had set sail on a dangerous voyage across the Pacific in the hopes that they could get to the United States. The ship launched a small rescue to bring the refugees back onto the carrier to safety. As the refugees got closer to the Midway, one of the refugees stood up, focused his attention on young American sailor, and called out to him, saying “Hello, American sailor. Hello, freedom man.”

Although the light in our country has dimmed a little at certain times throughout American history, the United States has always remained that shining city on a hill, a nation conceived in liberty, that people all around the world would sacrifice anything and everything to come to. This is still true today. Through the Civil War, we’ve cured ourselves of slavery. We did so in the War of 1812. When faced with the threat of Nazi-ism, the world looked to America, and we led the charge in defeating it.

We also turned back the tides and defeated communism by winning the Cold War. But America isn’t a great nation just because of its military might. It’s a great nation because of its American might and the values that it was founded on – fiscal discipline, limited government, personal responsibility. This is the time-tested formula that will put America back on the path to prosperity.I’m here to tell you that the American Dream is not dead. The American Dream lives on.  You can achieve it by starting with $10 in your pocket, no one else to do it for you. History has taught us that government is not your salvation. Government is not your road to prosperity. Hard work, education, and thrift will take you far beyond what any government program can ever promise.

Look at my parents or the refugees on that small leaky boat who gave up everything to come here and know that the American dream lives. Look at me and know that that can include you. Today, we’re going to discuss some of the policies in Washington that threaten that very American dream. Nearly $17 trillion of debt, a government takeover of health care and education, regulation and taxation, how far away are we from losing the Dream?

  • Bonnie Somer

    WE ARE NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING THE AMERICAN DREAM THERE ARE PLENTY OF DECENT LEGAL AMERICANS LEFT WHO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS NATION NEEDS TO B SAVED FROM THE GOVT WE HAVE NOW AMERICA IS WORTH SAVING AND I KNOW THAT AMERICANS WILL 

  • Anonymous

    We the people need to stomp out government tyranny wherever and whenever we experience it and see it.  We have allowed our government at all levels to garner way too much power.  This is not what our wise Founders envisioned for us when they gave us the gift of our wonderful Constitution and Bill of Rights.  We have allowed the government to foster dependency, over-regulate every aspect of our lives and create chaos and wreak havoc.  This is not what we fought a Revolutionary War for, exactly the opposite.  King George lives again via this obnoxious, out of control, intrusive behemoth we have permitted to evolve.  Only we the people can fix it.  Start with the mid term elections and sweep the debris out of DC; then on to 2016 vote out the rest of the vermin.  The vast majority are delusional, arrogant, inbred, corrupt, incompetent, self-serving, anti-American nut jobs and did I say delusional and corrupt?

  • Anonymous

    The Dream (Hope) is Heaven.  While on Earth we are to assist others who desire Heaven.  If the “American Dream” is wealth and prosperity then the Dream is false and dead.  If the American Dream is to *try* to be a place that assists others with Faith, Hope and Charity with the goal of Heaven,  then the American Dream is true, alive and well.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    The American Dream is lost. We are a fascist nation now, regardless of whether or not people are willing to acknowledge it. The law, policy, and actions of government identify this country as a fascist nation.

    If people believe in the American Dream and want it, then we have to initiate a political and cultural revolution the likes of which haven’t been seen in this country… ever. The founders of this nation set forth laws and principles that reflected their convictions. Since then the identity of this nation has been warped and changed, especially in the last 100 years, more especially within the last 20 years, most especially within the last 5 years – changed so much that we don’t even have the same form of government anymore.

    The first step toward positive change is to acknowledge the truth. This is not a free country. This is a fascist nation, the government of which is heavily influenced by a cabal of amoral global financiers and corporate empires. That’s not an extremist view. That’s the correct objective view taken in historic context. That is what we’ve become.

    Now the question is, what are you going to do about it?

  • http://www.facebook.com/rigoberto.serrano.39 Pachy Serrano

    So, by electing more Tea Baggers and having a right-wing President, we would have a revolution, a better America??
    Sorry, but I dont buy that, its pure BS. The real America is the people as a whole with our differences, our colors, our dreams, our religions, our children, our Govt. institutions, our Private enterpraises. America is in us and what America represents is for everyone not just for those who agree with liberals or conservatives. The Dream continues as long there is people who believe in it. God bless this wonderful nation and hope the rest of World also get blessed, we all need that.

  • Frank455444

     Well said.

  • Anonymous

    That’s a funny response, Pachy.  I didn’t see anything about “tea baggers” or “right-wing President” in anything that poundsand said.  He/she merely said “sweep the debris out of DC . . .vote out the rest of the vermin.”  Nowhere did he/she say anything about what you are inferring; nowhere did he/she define who the debris and vermin are.  So that means that you think the debris and vermin are the liberals, as there are many of them that need to be swept out also.

  • Anonymous

    I think we are in a real bad way but I think we should all wait for the all no nothing vaccuumannnn to show us the path he knows nothing about everything then we run the other way and all will be well SWEETHEARTS !!

  • Anonymous

    What can be done about it?  Revolution?  Looking back in history it did not solve the problems of the people (France, after Louis XVI and also Russia after Tsar Nicholas
    for example).  Did Napoleon do a better job than the monarchy he replaced?  Did the Bolsheviks and Communists did a better job than Tsar Nicholas?  Where the people really better off in the end?  It seems that history is repeating itself over and over again.
    People earn freedom but after a while they become complacent and do not value what they have.  I know things need to change in this country before the American Dream will be completely destroyed.  But, revolution and chaos will not be the answer.

  • Anonymous

    When did we become a “fascist “nation? how long ago?

    “The founders of this nation set forth laws and principles that reflected their convictions”

    They also owned slaves and stole the slaves labor in order to build their dream. I want no part of that legacy. So it may be difficult to return to the days of the founders for direction.

    Now if you want to bring under control the  “cabal of amoral global financiers and corporate empires” I will join you. They are definitely a problem to a free people.

  • Anonymous

    The government hasn’t taken over our health care. The citizens of this country have voted through their representatives to regulate and tax themselves in order to get better results for more people at a lower cost. Health care reform is something that should have been implemented 20,30,40,or 50 years ago. Better late than never. It’s an indication that we are maybe coming to our senses rather than an indication that we are loosing our freedom.

  • Anonymous

    losing, not loosing, dammit! I figure ObamaCare will be the nail that sinks us. We make too much for subsidies, but not enough to pay for his version of sub-standard care. Wait until you see all the hidden things that are in this law. Maybe then you’ll march on Nancy Pelosi. 

  • Anonymous

    MIA LOVE good segment.The American dream can be perserved by the people not by the government.They just need to be reminded of it.And it is their own efforts that make it happen.Keep up the good work.

  • Ellen

    This country is going to hell in a hand basket.

  • Anonymous

    Holding on to the belief that the founding father’s IDEALS/PRINCIPALS for self government, liberty, and freedom relied on slavery is not correct.  Slavery was fought from the beginning and defeated.  The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are two of the most perfect documents written for EVERYONE.  Those principals, those ideals  MUST be returned to for the sake of ALL races and all of humanity.  You are throwing out the baby with the bath water. 

  • http://AskHuldah.blogspot.com/ Maidservant Huldah

    Well said. We are now embarking on the American nightmare. We have been lulled to sleep by the soft glow of our computers.  We go wild at the next teen pop star that takes off her clothes. We are easily distracted by shiny objects. We have become like Varuka in Willie Wonka…”I want a goose that lays golden eggs Daddy, and I want it NOW!” 

    We no longer know how to feed ourselves, plant a seed, sew a piece of cloth. We have become totally dependent and we throw temper tantrums when Daddy doesn’t give us everything we want. 

    We have played right into their hands.

    askhuldah.blogspot.com

    .

  • MarsBarsTru7

    When? It’s been a long process, but various economic actions culminating with the “bailout” of 2008 marks the point in which there was little denying left that the economy was under a fascist rule. The building up of a huge bureaucracy that isn’t accountable to voters – appointed people who make law and policy that go beyond the strictures of what government is otherwise allowed to do – all directly answerable to the executive branch or various committees who dictate new policy, the specifics of which are generally unknown to the American public. The government defies law requiring them to disclose information to the American public. Policy has trumped Constitutional law time and time again. The wealth of the people of this nation was dissolved from representing real material wealth to a fiat currency and then debt. The government has assumed the right to seize property virtually at will – for the benefit of “the people” – which is straight up fascism (compare to Mussolini’s Italy or Hitler’s Germany, the two governments in history epitomizing fascism in the 20th century.

    The government assumed the authority to force loans on businesses, force businesses to change, hand out political favors in the forms of bailouts and tax exemptions, and slowly take over entire industries.

    The government keeps waving flags in our faces and claiming that dissent with government amounts to anti-patriotic sentiment and regularly flags citizens as “domestic terrorists” or “potential threats” because of otherwise perfectly legal and non-threatening activity, political affiliations, and/or behavior.

    The government has repeatedly made the case and pushed their authority in the vein that children are wards of the state and that parents are secondary authorities in the upbringing of children, going so far as to dictate many aspects of what acceptable child rearing is.

    Deliberate population control methods are in place as well as funding to develop further population control programs to implement in the near future.

    Aggressive war against nations not posing a direct threat to the sovereignty of the nation or the safety of citizens in the nation…

    It’s as classic a case of fascism as one gets. The United States of America is unequivocally a fascist nation.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    First off, most of the founders of this country did not own slaves, and many of them tried to make the case to abolish slavery from the beginning. The majority of those who cast votes on the founding documents and their adoption were opposed to slavery. But they all agreed on the necessity of a virtual unanimous vote to form a nation – being opposed to any single colony being forced to join, and believing that any division would cause the downfall of all.

    The southern colonies would not agree to the abolition of slavery. Therefore, the northern states were forced to concede slavery right from the beginning in order to procure the unanimous vote they were looking for. However, it was purposefully put forth by Northerners that the vote of slaves could not be counted as a full vote. This was done with the understanding that the North had a greater population than the South, and it was anticipated from the beginning that eventually the North would have enough votes to abolish slavery altogether. The banning of the import of new slaves to the country began that process. Without the influx of new slaves the North was able to quickly outpace the South with votes, eventually leading to the threat of having slavery banned from all new states, and the election of Lincoln who had frequently made his distaste for the institution of slavery known throughout his life (in contrast with his claims to have no intention of banning slavery altogether as President).

    So jackass, yeah, while some of the founders of this nation had slaves, most did not, and of those that did almost none of them resembled the stereotypical abusive southern slave owners depicted in movies. Jefferson, who inherited slaves, advocated the abolition of slavery.

    Benjamin Franklin on slavery:
    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/franklin-newrepublic.html

    Thomas Jefferson on slavery:
    http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-slavery

    George Washington on slavery:
    http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/creating-new-government/resources/george-washington-abolition-slavery-1786

    I can gather more if you wish. But why don’t you quit while you know you’re wrong and don’t make yourself out to be more of a fool than you already seem to be. Your argument holds no merit.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    You’re correct. Read my response to him. The majority of the founders of this nation were against slavery from the beginning. It was always a concession that they were determined to eventually eliminate.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    There’s a fallacy often repeated on the Internet that if Hitler is mentioned by someone in an argument, then that person has already lost the argument. The reason this is a fallacy and the reason Hitler is so often cited is because Hitler is an example that virtually everyone with Western (Judeo-Christian) values can agree on as a clear villain in relatively recent history. He is even more poignant in this particular discussion because I have stated that I perceive the United States to be a clearly fascist nation, qualified by the very definition of fascism. The National Socialist rule of Germany was a clear example of fascism. Without the policies of promoting a “super race” and concentration camps for unwanted segments of society (now, as opposed to when it did happen in WWI and WWII), and the direct military aggression toward our closest neighbors (Canada and Mexico) the function, authority, and behavior of our government, on every level, very much resembles Hitler’s Germany. (It just as closely resembles Mussolini’s Italy)

    Now, you make a point - although I’m not sure if you would necessarily articulate the point I perceive you’re making the way I’m about to – and that point is that revolution isn’t inherently good. I agree. Furthermore, I state unequivocally that I’m not advocating outright violent revolution – yet. I would hope, however, that any citizen of this country who watches as our government becomes increasingly fascist, if they cross the lines that the National Socialists did in Germany, that we’d all be willing to take up arms against them in resistance against such tyranny. But that isn’t the case now. The system is in place for them to give themselves the authority to do so, but they have not crossed those lines yet… Although one could make the case that they do cross some of them with subtlety.

    But no, I’m not advocating violent behavior or militant revolution. What I’m advocating at this point is preparation and an attempt at cultural and political revolution on as grand a scale as is possible within our legal right to do so. We need to force our government to either bow to the will of the people and abide by the legal restrictions that they have long been ignoring outlined in the Constitutions of the federal government and the states, suffer the legal consequences for violating the limits of their authority, or to directly confront the challenge to their illegitimate fascist rule and own their true identity in full.

    No liberty loving American - no God-loving and God-fearing brother or sister - should be willing to bow to the authority of an illegitimate government oppressing our fellow citizens. We were not founded on bowing to tyranny, and if we fall, God help us that we may do so standing and not kneeling in submission while our fellow Americans are imprisoned and killed and our children are indoctrinated and enslaved. And if we don’t stand our legacy be damned.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    The “Tea Baggers”, you so deride, advocate liberty in a form that allows for diversity.

    But the Tea Party isn’t a label that encompasses all of what this is about. They’re simply a political group vying for smaller government with many like-minded people who agree that less government would be better than the status quo and that more government is unacceptable.

    But ultimately group labels aren’t important at all. The ideals are what matters.

    Although some of the sentiment is in alignment with the same values many of us espouse, your comment overall is without a valid point.

  • Anonymous

    How close?  About 20-30 million criminal immigrants.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for your eloquent response.  I also liked all the other statements you made.  And I can see the connection to Hitler’s rule in Germany which most Americans can not or will not agree to.  But, you are right.  Yes, we need a change in this country desperately but so
    far I have not seen anything close to a cultural revolution.  It seems many Americans have been lulled to sleep.  There is no fire in their belly to change and the politicians all seem to think on the same wave length.  No one dares to stand up and speak the truth.  It is really sad what has become of this nation.  Thank you for all your excellent posts. You seem to be the voice in the wilderness that is crying: “Wake-up
    America”, and I am with you on that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rockentk Carole Kelley

    Mia was wonderful last night I enjoyed the entire show, would love to see more of this lady.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Toler/692108936 Michael Toler

    Hi Mia, you certainly are an inspiration to all Americans. Thank you.

  • Anonymous

    “All men are created equal” and “slaves are worth 3/5 of a person” are irreconcilable ideas.
    While not all of the founders owned slaves many did. By choice!!! No one forced them to buy slaves or keep their inherited slaves. They bought or kept them because slaves made their owners wealthy. The founders won the revolution, so it was not the king of England that forced them to keep their slaves. The founders could have abolished slavery but they didn’t. The fact that they didn’t because they needed the support of the southern colonies where slavery was common makes no difference. In the end they didn’t. Obviously the northern states never succeeded in abolishing slavery through political means.  Because the founders chose not to abolish slavery (for whatever reason) they started this nation off with a fundamental flaw that lives on to this day. No amount of denial, equivocation, obfuscation, or excuse making will change that. The question is weather or not we can repair that flaw without separating or destroying ourselves in the process. Your point about the founders treating their slaves well is also meaningless. Lets say they did. So what. They were stealing the slaves lives and labor. Are you suggesting that if they didn’t beat, rape or murder their slaves then it wasn’t all that bad. By the way even the founders weren’t all that great to their slaves. 

  • Anonymous

    MarsBars
    You make many good points and I agree with many of them as being real and serious problems. However rather than describe them as being evidence of fascism, I see them as evidence of Empire. An Empire that has been developing since the end of WW2. The majority of american citizens have been quite willing to go along with this development of Empire as it has a lot of benefits that go along with it’s development. Sometime around the end of 2007 this Empire hit some rather severe bumps in the road. Including military failure and economic failure that exposed cultural differences that go all the way back to the founding of this nation (discussed in previous posting). If we attempt to keep developing this Empire I think we do run the risk of fascism. But we are not there yet. It will be hard and costly to pull back from Empire and may not be possible, but is something we would be wise to do.

  • Anonymous

    Slavery was ended by a “Civil War” not by political means set up by a “perfect document”. How do you return to “All men are created equal” and “slaves are legal and are 3/5 of a person” Something is obviously wrong with the bathwater.

  • Anonymous

    MarsBar
    What are you talking about? 

    We need to force our government to either bow to the will of the people

    The government IS bowing to the will of the people. The Afordable Care Act is an obvious example. A lot of Americans have been trying to get some type of health care reform in place for 50 years. In 2010 citizens who had been fighting for health care reform succeeded. The ACA passed the house of representatives, the senate, was signed by the president and was found constitutional by the supreme court. That is democracy in action. It’s what you call the will of the people. Just because there are some (a minority) who don’t like it doesn’t matter.

     “no God-loving and God-fearing brother or sister - should be willing to bow to the authority of an illegitimate government oppressing our fellow citizens”

    Just whose God are you talking about here. I assume it must be yours. Is this the same God that compromised on the issue of slavery.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    Slaves had voting rights. The voting rights would have acknowledged each slave’s vote as 1 whole vote without the 3/5ths distinction. The slaves were forced to vote as their masters told them to vote. The northerners were able to get the South to concede that a single slave’s vote was only 3/5 of a vote in exchange for the legal right to slaves. The purpose was to prevent southern slave owners from accumulating slaves (as well as the incentive) in order to gain more votes to continue to promote slavery.

    You’re the one ignoring the salient points in favor of obfuscating.

    Again – MOST of the founders didn’t own slaves and didn’t support slavery. The fact is, even among those that did own slaves (three examples given G.W., T.J., B.F.) there were a number of them that freed their slaves and advocated the abolition of slavery.

    The fact is, slavery existed throughout practically the entire planet at the time, and what was happening in the newly formed United States was a change – a recognition that God’s Will was that all people should be free to pursue their own destinies, and that the laws of the land should reflect this. They were seeking to abolish an institution which they could have otherwise profited from. And because their words and actions laid the foundation, a new generation was able to abolish slavery.

    There is no “fundamental flaw” that lives to this day based on the initial inclusion of slavery. Slavery was abolished, bathed in blood and at the sacrifice of many fortunes. The debt for slavery was paid in life and treasure. There is no shame to be had on the part of the people in this country concerning the history of slavery. By God they fought and died to abolish it! We should rightfully be proud to have that national heritage.

    What was wrong and lingers is the legacy of segregation that came about later and was allowed, enforced, and established by our government on local, state, and federal levels. And the reason it lingers is because in order to abolish segregation we gave up essential liberties and allowed our government to establish law that infringes upon our rights and distinguishes between races, sexes, cultural backgrounds, and religions. THAT much has nothing to do with the establishment of our country or the founders. It has everything to do with the liberal mentality that every special interest group needs special laws regarding that group – which is in conflict with equality in liberty and has everything to do with control.

    Your position is without merit.

  • Anonymous

    How far away are we from losing the American Dream?   Close, very close.  If, indeed, we are

    not already there.  Just a couple more ”nudges” from the gov’t will get is there, probably.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    “Evidence of empire” – Your use of the word “empire” here is misplaced and in the way it is applied is ambiguous.

    Fascism is a word. It’s a word with definite meaning. It refers to a form of government and the traits that qualify a government as fascist. The United States qualifies as fascist.

    A fascist nation may engage in “empire building” but it doesn’t qualify that nation as an empire nor does it serve the purpose of identifying the form of government by applying the label “empire” ambiguously.

  • Anonymous

    “Slaves had voting rights” and “slaves were forced to vote as their masters told them to vote”.

    Are you kidding. Either the slaves had voting rights and voted as they wished of they didn’t. They didn’t. Their masters voted in there place. I can’t believe you are using this as an argument to justify your case.
     
    Again – MOST of the founders didn’t own slaves and didn’t support slavery

    Again. So what. They didn’t abolish it and they profited from it. As you pointed out slavery was common throughout the world at that time, which means early Americans including the founders weren’t all that different than people in the rest of the world.

     “Slavery was abolished, bathed in blood and at the sacrifice of many fortunes. The debt for slavery was paid in life and treasure”. You make it sound like the ending of slavery through war was something noble and pays off some debt. The civil war was the result of a failure of politics and a political system. It was the result of those that wanted to abolish slavery not being able to convince those who wanted to keep their stolen property and expand the practice throughout the rest of the US to give it up. The civil war is nothing to be proud of. It was the proof of  failure. Segregation and Jim Crow that came afterward was just further proof of failure.  

    “What was wrong and lingers is the legacy of segregation that came about later and was allowed, enforced, and established by our government on local, state, and federal levels.”

    That government that you talk about was “We the People”. It wasn’t imposed on us by some foreign entity.

    ” And the reason it lingers is because in order to abolish segregation we gave up essential liberties and allowed our government to establish law that infringes upon our rights and distinguishes between races, sexes, cultural backgrounds, and religions THAT much has nothing to do with the establishment of our country or the founders”

    You make it sound as if we only stared distinguishing between races, the sexes, cultural backgrounds and religions sometime long after the founding. Are you kidding me. Distinguishing between races is what slavery is all about in the country, Women didn’t have the vote or the right to won property at the founding and didn’t receive those rights until 200 years after the founding. The original 13 states all had state religions established. 

    The founding politics of the United States was a definite improvement over what was in place throughout the rest of the world. But perfect or even near perfect it was not. It’s good to go back and read and learn about the founding of our country. But that is as far as one should go. Not only can we not return to those times. I wouldn’t to if I could.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    1st off, there are conflicting polls on what kind of support Obamacare has. But the vast majority of polls have shown the majority of the people have a negative opinion of Obamacare.

    Wanting “healthcare reform” and supporting Obamacare are not synonymous. Many healthcare “reforms” have been passed over the years. Many who advocate healthcare reform interpret less government involvement in the healthcare industry as reform.

    There was no “success” in getting healthcare reform passed in 2010 on the part of “the people” because “the people” didn’t have a unified idea of what reform looked like. Obamacare reflects the desires of the minority, not the majority.

    The people of the United States didn’t vote on Obamacare and Obamacare was voted into law in a perfect storm of politics, during a very brief period in which Democrats enjoyed a supermajority, without which the bill wouldn’t have passed.

    “Democracy” is no more virtuous than a monarchy or any other form of government if the democratic process produces results that have no virtue. And the Supreme Court ruling has nothing to do with Democracy. Otherwise, any choice by an appointed official would be an example of democracy. The Supreme Court ruling was an example of partisan politics and the right majority of appointed judges being in the right place at the right time.

    God is God, and His existence is not subject to perception. And what “compromise” on slavery are you speaking of? You’re making up your own version of God to create a strawman to deride and mock. God is clear on the issue of slavery – He urges slave owners to release their slaves, puts the penalty of “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and life for a life” on the head of a slave owner that would abuse their slaves, and ultimately establishes that slavery is wrong with “Love thy neighbor (fellow human) as thyself” and later Christ says “Do unto others as you would have done to you.”

    Since no one wants to be enslaved against their will, and one would not be loving someone else as they love themselves if they enslaved another person… Use logic to follow this to its conclusion.

    Are you going to debate theology now?

    Lastly, I said “cultural and political revolution”. Getting the government to bow to the will of the people would obviously take place after hearts and minds were won over to ensure a majority which could legally take down an undesirable illegitimate government.

  • Anonymous

    This was a pretty ambiguous post Marsbar.

    My evidence for Empire is as follows.

    We have the worlds largest economy. With the strongest currency which basically everything of value is measured against through out the world. We dominate the world banking system and can largely dictate interest rates throughout the world. We attempt to impose our trade laws, to our benefit, on everyone we can get away with it.
    Our language (english) is the dominate language throughout the world (voluntarily).
    We try to export our religion although not as government policy (usually).

    We impose or backup our economic power with the most powerful military in the history of the world which we have used regularly for the last 60 years.
    Not sure of the latest count but we have hundreds (I believe 800) of military bases throughout the world. With roughly 500k armed troops to go along with those bases. We are involved in military actions throughout the world. We militarily outspent the rest of the world combined.(or nearly so). 

    One difference with past empires is that we still elect our Emperor. 

    Empire may not be a perfect description. But
    we represent an empire much more than not. 

  • Anonymous

    Polls?
    The only polls that matter regarding legislation are the polls taken in the congress, one vote by the president and the 9 votes of the supreme court ( which happens to be dominated by conservatives).
    Obamacare reflects the will of the majority and my evidence is that it is now law. 
    There was also one other poll of significance in 2012 when Obama was reelected after ACA being passed into law and the citizens making the choice to keep Obama in office and the ACA in place as law.

    Why do you not see virtue in expanding medical coverage, improving medical outcomes and at a reduced cost. 

    I completely agree with you that slavery is wrong based on the Golden Rule. But that still doesn’t answer the question of why the founders legalized slavery.

    If God is so clear on the matter of slavery then why did the founders not follow Gods position on slavery, as you put it and make it illegal.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    There are different degrees of rights. I didn’t contradict myself. Slaves had certain rights that varied depending upon where they lived. Slaves had the right to vote – and their vote counted as 3/5ths of a full vote. It was anticipated that slave owners would force slaves to vote the way the slave owners wanted them to. However, slaves were not compelled to vote the way slave owners wanted them to by law, and if a slave owner allowed a slave to vote on their own, a slave was entitled to do so.

    Slaves in the United States certainly suffered and slavery itself in any form is morally wrong – by Judeo-Christian standards. But that does not take away from the fact that there were laws that granted slaves a limited amount of rights. The 3/5s clause was specifically aimed at reducing the amount of influence slave owners could use (with the votes of their slaves) to vote in favor of slavery. UNDERSTAND: The 3/5ths clause was intentionally made to work against the institution of slavery. You seem to be continually ignoring this point and I’m not going to go over it again.

    You’re the one that cited that “many” founders owned slaves as if it was damning evidence against all of them. I cited that the majority did not own slaves. The fact that the majority didn’t refutes the notion that the founders were, as a whole, condemnable in association with slave ownership, especially when the majority advocated against slavery. You’re simply refusing to acknowledge your point was refuted.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    “which means early Americans including the founders weren’t all that different than people in the rest of the world.”

    The early Americans and founders were extremely different from the rest of the world at that time and to deny it only reveals intellectual dishonesty. Oh wait, you contradict this claim later anyway. Nevermind.

    “You make it sound like the ending of slavery through war was something noble and pays off some debt. The civil war was the result of a failure of politics and a political system.”

    The loss of life in war is tragic. However, the Civil War shines as an example of a virtuous cause winning out over a materialist cause. That you don’t see the positive in the events that led to the eventual abolition of slavery, including the Civil War, is deliberate and your position reflects on you. There’s nothing but personal opinion and projection in your submission on the topic.

    “That government that you talk about was “We the People”. It wasn’t imposed on us by some foreign entity.” – You

    I never said it was imposed on the people by a foreign entity. However, it was imposed nonetheless. “We the people” didn’t vote directly on the issue of federal segregation and at the time it wasn’t popular nationally. It was imposed. And any given government is not inherently representative of “the people”, even democratically elected governments. Governments *can* represent the people, but it’s reliant on the integrity of those elected to do so. And yeah, there were enough people in this country that supported it that it does reflect negatively on that portion of society for the period of time that it enjoyed popular support in certain areas of the country.

    However, just as it took votes for there to be an influence great enough to implement such laws in the first place, it also took votes to eliminate those very same laws – Again, something to be proud of.

    The irony in your convoluted thinking is that you fail to make the same distinction for the positive that you do for the negative. On the one hand you’ll blame all negative actions of the government on “We the People” yet you seem completely lacking in being able to make the same connection with the positives. Of course, then again, I’m sure you have a whole set of subjective “positives” you perceive in our history, don’t you? How do you like abortion?

    “You make it sound as if we only stared distinguishing between races, the sexes, cultural backgrounds and religions sometime long after the founding.” – You

    No, I made yet another point you deliberately ignored. The point being that the Democratic party, the perpetual leading party in infringing upon natural rights, used ending segregation as a bargaining chip for imposing yet other laws that infringe upon individual freedoms. It established a precedent that opened the door for continual expanding infringements. The tragedy is to have come so far as to abolish federal segregation and government discrimination, only to open the door to a whole different set/types of discriminations made by the government.

    “perfect or even near perfect it was not.” – You

    I never claimed it was perfect. Many things have been changed for the better. What has been changed for the worse though is the expansion of government to levels that infringe upon the rights of “the people” in violation of the Constitution. The minarchist government outlined in the Constitution held in check by the rights of the people has been abandoned in violation of the very document that gives the United States government the right to exist at all.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    You’re wasting time and effort here. This is a pointless effort to grasp at establishing a point that doesn’t exist.

    I don’t have the time or inclination to address it further.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    Again, for the most part you’re just wasting time here. There’s not much of substance in this worth addressing.

    What I will address is the “If God is so clear on the matter of slavery then why did the founders not follow God’s position on slavery, as you put it and make it illegal[?]”

    I already touched on the subject and your “question” here is just showing your ignorance. It reads as a rhetorical question, especially since it lacked a [?]. But I’ll address briefly it as if you were sincere.

    There is sufficient material to peruse through should you choose to do so on the subject, directly from the founders themselves. Of the founders of the nation, you’d be challenged to find the ones who didn’t have something negative to say about the institution of slavery. Even among those who represented the South and voted to keep slavery legal.

    But to summarize – Going into the Revolutionary War there was already a very strong and growing discontent in the colonies regarding slavery. The spearhead were Christian abolitionists in the northern colonies where slavery was relatively uncommon.

    During the Revolutionary War there were a notable number of black participants on the side of the Revolution. There were very few laws in any of the colonies up to that point that were racially discriminatory at all. A very small portion of the slaves were white after all, and some Native American. Also, there were some black land owners that owned slaves as well – which continued right through to the end of the Civil War.

    By the end of the Revolutionary War, in the North the ideological battle for the abolition of slavery had been fairly well won. It was simply assumed that slavery would end in all the colonies by many of the participants in the founding of the nation. All one need do is read what they had to say for themselves.

    However, the nation was vulnerable and there were many powerful and influential land owners in the South whose fortunes were tied directly to slavery. Although it doesn’t make its way into most of our history books today, the issue of slavery was greatly debated at the time. The United States almost never existed because of the division over the abolition of slavery, right from the start. The northern representatives deliberated and many private meetings were held between them (written about extensively by participants) and they came to the conclusion that the new nation could not withstand another aggressive war with England if all of the colonies weren’t united. They believed if one colony was separate it might ally with England and make a war against England virtually impossible.

    They conceded the point of slavery on the condition that the votes of slaves would only count as a 3/5ths vote. This clause was put forth by the very people seeking to give slaves equal rights under the law – as a point of legislation that they believed would eventually help to eventually eliminate slavery.

    Thus, they acquired the unanimous vote and all the colonies were united into one nation.

    The expressed religious and otherwise practical concerns regarding slavery are extensive in the writings of most of the founders. Should they have demanded the abolition of slavery in all colonies and not given in right from the start? I’d like to think that would have been the preferable course of action. But I don’t presume to condemn them for the course they did take.

    And in the end, that anyone on earth owned slaves, let alone Americans, doesn’t reflect on Judeo-Christian values. The tenets do not change, and if someone acts in a manner not in keeping with those tenets, whether they call themselves “Jew” or “Christian” or not, they show the fallibility of human decision making and act against what is God’s Will, not in keeping with it. So to ask why anyone does not keep to God’s will, you might as well ask why anyone thinks they know better than God.

  • Anonymous

    Fredrick Douglas finally understood what the 3/5 representative legislation meant, hopefully you will.  The southern pro slavery states would have had more pro slavery representatives if it were not for legislation that would only allow them to count ’60%’ of its black population.  No one was counted as 3/5ths of a person.  Pro-Slavery is not in any of the founder’s documents, but all men are created equal is a principal most inteligent people understand to be true.

    It is unfortunate with the current communist president we have, he does not have the intelligence to bolster or uplift the nation as a whole, but to only bring down 80% of the population to feed cake to the poorest we have.  As attesting to that, virtually all of America is seeking waivers from ObamaCare that is starting to be quite apparent the cost will drive this country into bankruptcy.  Even FOB are running from it.

  • Anonymous

    As reply is not available on your resent post responses I will respond on this one.

    I assume that when you say
     ” for the most part you’re just wasting time here. There’s not much of substance in this worth addressing.”
     means you are have run out of arguments to support your position. A good position for you to take.

  • MarsBarsTru7

    You’re projecting. I guess that’s easier for you than introspection, isn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    Nineteen84. In 20 years from now, after the Afordable Care Act has been implemented and improved on where needed, people may remember that it was President Obama that successfully passed and implemented healthcare reform, after all it will be know as Obamacare. Fortunately for your sake, you and all those like you who opposed it will be forgotten, left in the dustbin of history where you will still enjoy affordable health care.

  • Anonymous

    The choice was yours MarsBars.

  • Anonymous

    the American dream is being taken away by our govt / Obama agenda. that’s why we as a nation need to take it back.

  • jim

    Put a fork in it america

  • chip griffin

       I AM SO SICK OF HEARING ABOUT THIS AMERICAN (LIE) DREAM! it is more like a nightmare. let’s see momma goes to work all day, daddy has been gone for a few years now, yet the new guy is great, right? for you maybe, but the kids can’t stand him and wish you cared more about them, than the house, and your name, in crowds of people none of us know. they wish you would have let daddy stay home and work, like he wanted too and you could have been our mother. NO, instead he have to live with this crap you call a dream, it’s your dream, not ours, we wanted to be loved and taught by our parents, not the school system. we wanted to know both our parents and spend time with them each and every day! SCREW YOUR DREAM! it’s been our nightmare…………………………the children you said you wanted, you lied and now your trying to sell it to us. GOD SAYS NO, AND HE IS SHUTTING THIS PLACE DOWN good bye american dream…thank GOD he cares!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Anonymous

     

    Politicians are
    the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against
    them.

    Have you ever
    wondered if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do
    we have deficits?

    Have you ever
    wondered if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we
    have inflation and high taxes?

    One hundred
    senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices
    equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally,
    morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague
    this country.

    What separates a
    politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal
    human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the
    President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He
    cannot force the Congress to accept it.

    It seems
    inconceivable that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand
    convicted — by present facts — of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can’t
    think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545
    people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power
    of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they
    want to exist.

    (author
    unknown)

    Any questions ??

     

  • Anonymous

    HOW LONG
    DO WE HAVE?

    About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in
    1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
    Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000
    years earlier:

    “A democracy is always temporary in nature;
    it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  A democracy will continue to exist up until
    the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the
    public treasury.  From that moment on,
    the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from
    the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse
    due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.  The average age of the world’s greatest
    civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years.  During those 200 years, those nations always
    progressed through the following sequence:

    1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
    2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
    3. from courage to liberty;
    4. from liberty to abundance;
    5. from abundance to complacency;
    6. from complacency to apathy;
    7. from apathy to dependence;
    8. from dependence back into bondage”