Did President Obama lie about what was discussed during his meeting with Pope Francis?

Following years of strained relations between the Obama Administration and the Catholic Church, Pope Francis and President Obama met for the first time at the Vatican last Thursday. The meeting got off to an interesting start when the President presented the Pontiff with a chest filled with fruit and vegetable seeds used in the White House garden. And the aftermath of the jaunt has resulted in a bit of a schism – with the Vatican and White House giving starkly different versions of Thursday’s conversation.

Get Glenn Live! On TheBlaze TV

“The President goes to the Vatican and he says, ‘Man, we talked about socialism and how great it is. And that is pretty much all we talked about. And the Vatican comes out and says, ‘No, we talked about religious freedom,’” Glenn explained on radio this morning. “Obama said that didn’t even come up… Now, which one do you believe?”

“Oh, this is a tough one,” Stu quipped. “You’re putting me on the spot like that.”

The Washington Times reports:

The president’s account downplayed the Catholic Church’s concerns about religious freedom in the United States and Obamacare’s mandate to pay for contraception.

The pontiff and the president were cordial in the televised portions of their meeting, but a subtle competition to set the agenda played out after the meeting, which went well beyond its scheduled half-hour.

“We actually didn’t talk a whole lot about social schisms in my conversations with His Holiness,” Mr. Obama said at a press conference in Rome. “In fact, that really was not a topic of conversation.”

[…]

The Vatican, however, issued a statement after the meeting saying the president’s discussions with Francis and two other top Vatican officials focused “on questions of particular relevance for the [Catholic] Church in [the United States], such as the exercise of the rights to religious freedom, life and conscientious objection” — issues that have fueled divisions between Mr. Obama and the church.

“Who goes to see the Holy Father and then lies about it? That is absolutely incredible,” Glenn concluded. “And, Catholics, are you even outraged? Was anybody saying: Wait a minute. He lies about the meeting with the Pope? So much of the pope and the Vatican have and Pope have to come out and say, ‘No, that’s not what happened.’ That’s unheard of.”

Front page image courtesy of the AP

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    The Pope is NOT the Holy Father.

  • landofaahs

    Somebody is lying. Perhaps both.

  • landofaahs

    The Holy Father is God the Father. I don’t understand how people confuse, mix up or flat out misuse the term.

  • landofaahs

    Between the Pop and Dope, there ain’t no hope. Two socialists on the same side of the counterfeit coin.

  • WASP

    Was his mouth open?

  • Anonymous

    Or, were Obama’s lips moving???

  • Anonymous

    Who do I believe???? You’ve got to be kidding!!!!!!

  • TurboVenator

    That’s what I call him. LOTS of us do….and have been for a mere 2000 years. Maybe you haven’t heard yet.

  • TurboVenator

    We RC’s understand him as the Vicar of Christ and the Holy Father. He is kind of taking care of the lambs until the actual Shepherd returns. Sorry you don’t see it that way but you are totally free to disagree. For the time being. BTW the Holy Father was interested in keeping it that way for you during this meeting. Guess you are not appreciating that. Okay, then.

  • TurboVenator

    If you cannot distinguish between an exhortation to give to others in a Christian sense and a confiscation of your earnings by government coercion…then perhaps you need to re-look the definition of socialism…an ideology which the Church has been in conflict with for a couple of hundred years now.

  • Anonymous

    here’s some wood to add to the fire. the governments
    , thru the U.N., are going to shut down and destroy religion . revelation chapter 18 . babylon the great will be destroyed. since the catholics seldom use the bible they wouldn’t know this but the pope does.

  • landofaahs

    You can call him Pastor, Father, Papa or Shepherd. But there is only one who is Holy. That Holy one is God. Sorry you don’t see that but feel free to believe what you like. As far as the socialist thing, I would only ask you to investigate the pope’s part in the “Dirty Wars”.

  • Larry

    Where is it written that a MAN can hold such title (Holy Father) within the Holy Bible? Turbo I think you are mistaken 2000 years of tradition with truths.

  • http://www.absoluteintensity.com dennis reilly

    obama is such a caring man on his million dollar vacations and golf outings and celebrity concerts

  • Anonymous

    I’m Protestant, yet I would consider you my friend in Christ. The Pope is held to the exact same standard as you and I in the eyes of Christ. He has sinned in his life, we both know that because he is a human being. It’s not complicated. The title itself has no significance of any kind. He’s a good man, as popes occasionally are…My point is, my name is written in the Book of Life because I acknowledge Christ, regardless of my opinion of the Pope or the Roman Catholic Church. I think you are going to heaven…but I wonder, do you realize that there will be many people in heaven who are not Catholics? I can assure you that ALL of them will be Christians.

  • Hugh Jass
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72EnfFysPFE Connor

    So was America and look where we are now.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72EnfFysPFE Connor

    Obama lies all the time what else is knew.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72EnfFysPFE Connor

    I only have one Holy Father and he is not man.

  • Fat Lip

    The fake messiah lying sure why not he is a fake .

  • Anonymous

    No contest after the Obamacare whopper .

  • Anonymous

    And while we are arguing about who is whom, ROME BURNS!!!!! I am more than a little tired of bickering about semantics . . . don’t you think there is something much more important at stake here?

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    I’m sorry but you have been deceived into false doctrines. The Vatican has declared the Popes (aka Roman Pontiffs) infallible. Using that in a simple syllogism, I come up with:

    All men are fallible
    The Pope is infallible
    Therefore the Pope is not a man

    The truth is easy enough to ascertain, have any of the Popes ever been wrong?

    Both Scripture and History say yes, many times over. So where does that leave your “Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ” and his Church of Rome?

  • Anonymous

    That was a great one, and it even rhymes, ha, ha!

  • Anonymous

    Same here! Trouble is, he lies, he has lied and will lie again because he can get away with it…I may forgive a lie, but I won’t trust the liar again.

  • Larry

    Hugh, I read your link and still find a missing link between the position of Peter as the absolute ROCK of Christianity and Catholic Popes. I also wonder since Peter’s chair is mentioned why didn’t Jesus suggest others would take Peters Chair after his passing? To me the Pope is a Catholic Tradition; for there are many rituals contained within the Holy Bible, the Passover for instance yet no ritual in declaring a new Peter as a new ROCK or Pope. There is only ONE Peter in my mind and other Christians for countless Generations!

  • texastruthtweet

    Good Heavens! Am I the only one who has had enough of this?

  • Bill Tilghman

    Is there really any doubt?

  • Bill Tilghman

    Your assertion flies in the face of reality. In other words, Devin, you are once again absurdly incorrect. People can call the Pope the Holy Father without your permission.

  • Bill Tilghman

    So you are a bigot against the Catholic Church and it’s teachings since the days of the apostle Peter. Who would have thought you would take such a position – besides me of course…

  • FrozenPuppyPoop

    Do you people read what you write? Especially the guy who can’t spell pope! Your all these perfect Christians and your throwing stones at the Pope a man who gives his life to Christ! Yes your all so perfect! So why are Christians ridiculing a Christian like the Pope and saying nothing about your favorite Christian Obama? Can you see what’s wrong here? You’ve missed the whole point of the story! Let’s all get mad at the Pope for wanting religious freedom and say nothing about Obama’s plans for socialism! And you wonder why our country is the way it is! Good job America!

  • Bill Tilghman

    Good for you… Does that mean others MUST adhere to your views, or are they free to pursue their own, as guaranteed by the Constitution?

  • Bill Tilghman

    Is this person not within their rights to observe their own beliefs in their own way? I think we established a nation based on that principle, and reiterated it in the Bill of Rights.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Crikey! You are an angry little fellow.

    If you want to refer to the Pope as God then go ahead and be a blasphemer, you have my permission… but I wouldn’t advise it.

  • Yuri Ivanovich

    I’ll believe the Vatican. O lies all of the time.

  • Yuri Ivanovich

    Yes when he was with the Saudi king.

  • Yuri Ivanovich

    And then turned around bent over and smiled some more

  • Anonymous

    I just have to say it….”Did Obama lie?…. Is the Pope Catholic?”

  • Lydia Saunders

    my&nbspbest&nbspfriend’s&nbspaunt&nbspΜ­­­­­­а­­­­­­κ­­­­­­℮­­­­­­ѕ&nbsp$­­­­­­­­­­­73&nbspհ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­υ­­­­­­rly&nbspon&nbspthe&nbspl­­­­­­а­­­­­­р­­­­­­τ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­р.&nbspShe&nbsphas&nbspbeen&nbspwithout&nbspW­­­­­­օ­­­­­­r­­­­­­κ&nbspfor&nbsp10&nbspΜ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­ո­­­­­­τ­­­­­­հ­­­­­­ѕ&nbspbut&nbsplast&nbspΜ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­ո­­­­­­τ­­­­­­հ&nbspher&nbspр­­­­­­а­­­Уcheck&nbspwas&nbsp$­­­­­­­­­­­19840&nbspjust&nbspW­­­­­­օ­­­­­­r­­­­­­κing&nbspon&nbspthe&nbspl­­­­­­а­­­­­­р­­­­­­τ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­р&nbspfor&nbspa&nbspϜ­­­­­­℮­­­­­­W&nbspհ­­­­­­օ­­­­­­υ­­­­­­rs.&nbspfind&nbspout&nbspthis&nbspհ­­­­­­℮­­­­­­r­­­­­­℮,..&nbsphttp://Foxprofitfalls&#50&#x30&#49&#x34online0iq9Fq….

    ☗☗☗ ☗☗�☗ ☗☗☗� ☗☗☗ ☗☗☗BTW the Holy Father was interested in keeping it that way for you during this meeting.

  • Anonymous

    In your rush to be part of the Pope (with an e) bashing, you failed to ascertain that Pop and Dope do not rhyme. So laugh it up, genius.

  • Anonymous

    What are you talking about, Pope and Dope rhyme perfectly!
    It is obvious that landofaahs made a typo or not?
    And I think landofaahs did not suggest that the Pope was the dope, and I would never bash the Pope even though I am not a Catholic.

  • Anonymous

    So what then are you laughing “ha ha” about? “there ain’t no hope” [between the two of them] or “two socialists of the same counterfeit coin”? There’s nothing funny about the posting – it’s bashing the Pope and your “ha ha” showed your concurrence.

  • Tony R

    so Scripture is fallible because the only thing that Jesus wrote was in the sand when He was asked what to do about the woman caught in adultery. so where does that leave you when you are reading a fallible book? According to your definition of fallibility/infallibility.
    The Catholic Church ruled on the Canon of Scripture in 393 and 397. Infallibly I might add because if they didn’t you are reading a book full of errors.
    its amazing how many “bible” believing Christians don’t even know the history of the Bible.
    Also, only about 4 of the 12 actually wrote any of the books of Scripture. The other books were written by men led by the Holy Spirit, without error. then The Catholic Church, led by the Pope, decide on the books of the New Testament.
    The Pope led by the Holy Spirit only speaks Infallibility in Faith and Morals. He has exorcised this power about 2 times in 2000 yrs.

  • Anonymous

    So many of these commenters lost focus. The discussion was – Who do you believe told the truth — B.O. or Pope Francis. So make a decision all of you.

  • Darren Marlar

    Doesn’t this mean that Obama is calling the Pope a liar?

  • Anonymous

    Obama is a LIAR, period!

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Hi Tony,

    Re: History of the Bible

    The Catholic Church ruled and decided? I thought it was God who decided which books belonged in the biblical canon. Silly me, I didn’t know that God needed their approval.

    Re: “The Pope led by the Holy Spirit only speaks Infallibility in Faith and Morals.”

    If that is true, why does the Pope teach a different gospel then the one of the Bible?

    Like I said before, the Scriptures and history speak otherwise.

    God bless,

    ~BTG

    Matthew 23:

    9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    Revelation 15:4

    “Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
    For You alone are holy;
    For all the nations will come and worship before You,
    For Your [c]righteous acts have been revealed.”

    Galatians 1:

    6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

  • Anonymous

    Do not tell me what I was thinking or what you are trying to imply I was thinking when I laughed about the rhyme.
    For all the good the church has been doing, there are also enough black stains which should not be overlooked. If the church gets involved in politics there is no hope. The Pope should stay out of politics and only concern himself with church matters. If it is true what the Vatican said that Obama and the Pope talked about church matters in the US, it was a good thing. On the other hand if they talked about income inequality and other political matters like Obama claimed, it is not a good thing. The Pope should not meddle in politics, like they often did in the past, if you know a little history. Socialism and Communism are not good for freedom of religion, so it is a fools’ errand to think it will be good for a free nation and its people. You do not have to get your knickers into a twist when someone agrees that there is no hope and no future in promoting socialism or communism, it is a pipe dream or like landofaahs said a “counterfeit coin”, it is not real.

  • Glennfriend67

    God is our HEAVENLY Father. Pope Francis is our Holy Father. If you’re Catholic. If you’re Obama, you’re a lying sack of pus and a servant of Satan.

  • Glennfriend67

    The Holy Father is infallible when it comes to Church Doctrine ONLY. Thanks for leaving that important little tidbit out, Catholic-basher!

  • landofaahs

    I forgot the E. It’s just one of many mistakes I have made in life. But since Catholics consider him their father, then Pop would also be apt. I do not bash the pope, those who call him Holy are ascribing to him what is only God the Father’s and that is the term HOLY.

  • landofaahs

    The dope is Obama of course. The pope can read a teleprompter without mispronouncing “corpsman”.

  • landofaahs

    Jesus said to the rich young ruler “Why do you call me good. There is only one that does good”. Jesus was giving the ruler the chance to acknowledge who Christ truly is. Any mere human being like the pope claiming to be Holy needs bashing with the truth.

  • landofaahs

    I believe the RC’s to even have the Vicar part incorrectly. The special thing about Peter was that he was the first to express his faith that Jesus was the Christ. The RC’s extrapolation that thereby Rome was the seat of the only true church was an act of hubris and arrogance. After all St. Paul asked the question “Who is Peter and who is Paul” Paul knew that Christ was to be preached. Why would Christ have had to call Paul to spread his word to the gentiles instead of Peter? Peter did his preaching mainly in Jerusalem. Why then the connection to Rome? Peter was the Rock because Christ is the cornerstone and all believers afterward are rocks building the church of Christ, not Rome. Or do you think only RC’s are saved? If they are not then your claim that we all must follow the pope is bogus.

  • landofaahs

    Although I cannot prove it, I think that when Emperor Constantine accepted Christianity as the religion of Rome, that it was emphasized the Virgin Mary because Pagan Rome venerated the vestal virgins. Apply the Rome and the head of the church to be Peter and his successors and you have a recipe for a willingness of the people to accept it as the new religion. The Catholic church is replete with examples of them incorporating pagan beliefs in the church in order to get them to accept Christianity. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with it but it can be abused when it leads people to believe something that is not true. But that is only conjecture on my part.

  • landofaahs

    All the books are Holy Spirit breathed, including the gospels. Please don’t assume that people who disagree with you are necessarily ignorant of Biblical history. You might stick your foot in your mouth in doing so. There is only one mediator between God and man and that person is Jesus Christ. Since you know your Bible so well, you will know where it is written.

  • landofaahs

    Your a good egg Bill. We can like each other though without believing exactly the same. I still enjoy your posts. But these are not things that can destroy our salvation. As Paul said. Some say I follow Cephas and some follow Paul. But what is Peter and Paul”. Paul even said he was glad that he only baptized a few people because of the problem of following men instead of the Trinity who we are baptized in.

  • landofaahs

    Perhaps we should call Obama “Burger King” the home of the whoppers.

  • landofaahs

    Obama the “Burglar King” home of the whoppers.

  • Guest

    The Blue Nosed Botfly is buzzing around again? Swat! Swat!

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Miss! Miss!

  • Anonymous

    What in the world are you talking about. You’re (not your) sounding ridiculous. I’ve seen almost nothing BUT ridicule for Obama on here. And although a couple of people have also derided the Pope, most people I’ve read here are supportive in their comments.

  • Anonymous

    Lol the Pope can give a speech without a teleprompter.

  • Anonymous

    Lol let it go Catholics get to touchy about this guy. When we all get to heaven an they figure out that Joe the plumber and the Pope are equally flawed in Gods eyes it will be quite a shock to some.

  • Guest

    Yuck! got him with my shoe!

  • Anonymous

    My fellow American I don’t think it was the intended thought of this post to bash the Pope but why would he even take a meeting with a man who is such a dirt bag. I bet he needed hand sanitizer after they shook hands. I do hope he checked his ring to be sure obama did not steal it. Heaven knows obama thinks everyone else’s wealth needs to be redistributed well except his own. There is your ha ha.

  • Deckard426

    It could be a while for the Catholic Church’s official position on the Obama meeting. The apology to Galileo was on The Pope’s desk for four hundred years.

  • http://suzeraining.wordpress.com/ suz

    where’s the next al fraken book of “lies and the lying liars who tell them, part II?”

  • ken.

    was he thinking?

  • ken.

    socialists and communists infiltrate into anything and everything that they believe will give them control of the masses. the will either take over and change the direction and purpose and/or destroy it from the inside. it’s what they do and how they take power. slowly nudging and pushing out the real purpose and replacing it with their own.

  • Tony R

    So the books are Holy
    Spirit breathed, including the gospels.
    So your saying they are infallible?
    Why can’t you say they are infallible books written by fallible
    men? Because that shows that the Holy
    Spirit can work infallibly through sinful men.
    Did the men who wrote the bible sin before they wrote the bible and
    afterward? Yes, probably. When writing the bible they didn’t. So, how does your shoe taste now?

    If there is only one mediator between God and man and that
    person is Jesus Christ. True because the
    bible that the Catholic Church gave you says so. Why are you mediating now
    trying to correct me? Aren’t you? one who intervenes between two
    persons who are at variance,
    with a view to reconcile
    them. You are doing exactly what you
    interpret the bible as saying not to do.
    You are not the mediator between me and God…. According to you.

    Sorry I missed the part where you
    acknowledge that the Catholic Church decided to put the 27 books of the New
    Testament together so that the bible that you use today was compiled by the
    Catholic Church. I guess if you think we made a mistake you can take a book out
    or put one in or change some words.

    Please don’t assume that some don’t know
    about full 2000 year Christian history.
    You must know as well being that you are very careful not to say that
    men were infallible when they wrote the bible.
    Don’t want to give credit to something that you disagree with.

  • Tony R

    So BTG when did God come down and say put these 27 books in
    the bible? Silly me I missed the Holy
    index in the beginning of the bible where God said include these 27 books but
    keep out the 250 or so other books that people were using before the Catholic Church decided which to use.

    Different Gospel than the bible teaches? its our book. . We put the book together, taught certain things. Pretty sure that
    if someone comes along later and decides to change the meaning they are the ones
    teaching a different Gospel. Why are
    there over 30,000 different denominations using the same book? So the Holy Spirit is a spirit of
    confusion? Is everyone right
    interpreting the same book? A big question to consider is when does the
    reinterpretation of the bible stop? Does
    this continue till the end of the world?
    Are we free to interpret it however we want? Some will say the Holy Spirit inspired me
    into this interpretation. Yeah but the
    church down the block says the same thing and they contradict in what they
    believe. So who is right?

    These aren’t little disagreements either. Some have to do with Salvation. Who is right?

    This is just like what the liberals are doing to the
    constitution. They can’t change it so
    they change the meaning of the constitution to suit their beliefs.

    Its as if wrote a book. You told your family the meaning of the book. 30 yrs from now someone else says this is
    what you actually meant. Disagreeing completely with what you told your family the book meant. Who is right?

    Really BTG I mean it when I say God Bless… please learn the history of the Catholic Church
    and the Bible, Gods holy word. You,
    unlike others who post here will see what you have been taught vs what the
    Catholic Church really believes contradict.

  • Anonymous

    You have been missing the point completely. The discussion was if Obama was telling the truth about the meeting with the Pope or was the Pope and the Vatican telling the truth. The Pope said he was talking to Obama about the freedom of religion in the US, but Obama said that he only talked about the income inequality in the US. So the question was asked, who was telling the truth? We all know that something is going on (the war on Christmas etc.). If you are well informed this subject is dear to all of us. Socialism and Communism and Fascism have no love for the church. In Russia, under Stalin, the churches were closed. In East Germany it was frowned upon to get baptized or receive any other sacrament. So, Communism is the enemy of the church in general. And if you are a frequent visitor on this site, you should know that most people do not agree with the way this president is running the country and are tired of all the lies Obama and this administration has been telling to the American people.

  • smartanna

    The biggest joke here is the fact that the president gives the Pope seeds they use in the WH garden. He expects the Pope to use them when he lives in a country with the best fruits and vegetables in the world? Is there any limit to this president’s ignorance? Somebody tell the Pope those seeds are GMO’s!!!

  • Anonymous

    …guaranteed by the Constitution,” which includes, (dare I say it?), no religion at all.

  • TurboVenator

    Rome was the center of all civilization and as was said “All roads lead to Rome” thus the connection to Rome is obvious. If you were tasked with spreading the Gospel in the modern era would you be able to communicate to the world from Billings, Montana or New York City or DC? Paul was to preach to the Gentiles and was chosen by Our Lord for the task because (I would imagine) he was well suited for it, having a better education and an ability to speak Greek, and was indefatigable, etc. Yet….Paul also deferred to Peter and recognized Peter as the leader of the Church even while persuading Peter to allow for Gentiles to not be required to follow Jewish Law such as circumcision. Otherwise….why would he even bother with Peter? Yes? As for Christ being the cornerstone of the faith I completely agree with you as does the Church. Consider this however…Believers are not, as you say, the cornerstone or rocks which build the Church. If we were, we would be building our own individual church and not the Church which Christ built. We are not the foundation, Christ is. (Actually, I think you do not believe that and simply misspoke) What we all are is the Body of Christ. The faith and the Church were left by Christ to tend to our needs after he Ascended into heaven. He did not leave the sheep without a shepherd. That would have been an act of abandonment which would not be characteristic of charity and love….and not scripturally supported. No…he built one Church and beseeched that it not be divided. The Church is not a human invention but it is a human endeavor guided by the Holy Spirit. Lastly, if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church you will see who is saved. It does not teach that only Catholics go to heaven. The Catholic Church provides the Sacramental Life which gives the lambs a safe haven and a home with a shepherd to care for them and flourish….cradle to grave. This is probably the best way I can describe it. I cannot convince you and that is not my duty. My duty is to promote the facts about my faith for you to consider and decide for yourself. Conversion or not is up to the Holy Spirit. That is out of my “pay-grade” as it were. At the very least, however, I think you should be fair to the point of paying respect to the motives and beliefs of fellow Christians of good will. If all Christians are charitable to one another then they are obviously part of the Body of Christ.

  • landofaahs

    If Rome were the center of all civilization as you say and that Paul was chosen to preach to the gentiles then why did Peter preach to Jerusalem and the jews and Paul preached to the pagns in Rome. It seem Paul would be the head of the church in Rome then. Paul was called by Christ and deferred to Peter as a fellow Apostle not as an underling.
    Answer my question. Can non-Roman Catholics go to heaven? What about those who died for the true faith and not Catholicism?

  • landofaahs

    You lie. I did not say that believers are the cornerstone. Christ is the cornerstone and all we Christians like Peter are additional rocks making the church. The Church is the body of Christ and we are all it’s members who have faith in him. You treat the roman catholic church just like the jews in Christ’s time treated Judaism. The Jews thought being son’s of Abraham was enough for their salvation. Your church seems to think that being Roman Catholic gets you in the gates of paradise just by being a member. Well with the help of some indulgences to buy your way out of purgatory.

  • TurboVenator

    Agreed. Constantine, after a vision, and a miraculousmilitary victory at the Miluvian Bridge converted the entire Empire to Christianity, ceased the suppression of Christians and then actually began to build churches. His mother was St. Helena. You are correct in that the early Church accommodated prior pagan believers to an extent (rather than persecute them) and made the conversion more successful. The scriptural basis of the Virgin Mary was likely quite appealing to the early pagan Romans for the reason you stated and in that sense she was able to help bring believers to her Son very effectively. Some Catholics today get somewhat carried away but on the whole it is very much understood that the Mother of God is to be revered and NOT worshipped. It is Jesus Mom….I love her too!

  • TurboVenator

    There is one mediator as you say. The priest through the sacrament of Holy Orders, through Jesus in the Holy Spirit is merely extending mercy that is from God. It is not the mercy of the Priest or man but directly from God through that lowly priest.

  • TurboVenator

    Amen….I have said all I care to. God Bless!

  • TurboVenator

    Does this question really need an official answer!? :)

  • Bill Tilghman

    Maybe it is time for a RAID!!!!

  • Bill Tilghman

    I simply don’t believe that criticizing another person’s belief system is a winner. I see no harm in what the Roman Catholic church believes or in what they call the man in charge in Rome. I don’t have a dog in that fight since I am neither Catholic or devoutly practice one particular brand of protestantism. I feel the important parts are covered by all Christianity, and see no real need to get personal about what the other guy thinks. That is where I am coming from – a sort of live and let live attitude.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Re: “Really BTG I mean it when I say God Bless…”

    Are Catholics claiming to be psychic now and can see into the hearts of other men? That was a petty and unwarranted comment to make.

    Re: ” Silly me I missed the Holy index in the beginning of the bible where God said include these 27 books but keep out the 250 or so other books that people were using before the Catholic Church decided which to use.”

    I thought God worked through the Holy Spirit? Are you suggesting because God did not insert a foreword into His New Testament, it was all the Catholic Church’s doing?

    I know that fits neatly into claiming the Bible belongs to you and the Catholic Church alone, but nothing could be further from the truth. It was written for all mankind so that we might all be saved, not just the people who swear loyalty to your Church. That’s the problem with Catholicism, they worship the Church of Rome and not Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

    Re: Salvation, who is right?

    In logic, there is the law of non-contradiction. Meaning whenever there is a contradiction, both sides can be wrong but only one can be correct. So the question is, are we both incorrect or is one of us correct?

    I can refute Catholicism via sola Scriptura because your Church doctrines are unbiblical. I can also point to historical facts showing the atrocities of the Roman Church that they have never apologized or repented for. How can they when their Popes are infallible, to do so would be a contradiction.

    The Marian martyrs
    The Vaudois
    The Albigenses
    The Spanish Inquisitions

    The Church of Rome justified their atrocities by claiming they are the sole arbiters of Christianity and all others are heretics. Isn’t it odd that Church is now claiming ecumenical and interfaith doctrines now?

    “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection,” ~Pope John Paul II speech to Muslims in Morocco in 1985.

    “From the beginning of my ministry as bishop of Rome, I have insisted that the engagement of the Catholic Church in the ecumenical movement is irreversible.” ~Pope John Paul II

    What’s really odd is how the Vatican keeps reaffirming the Council of Trent which pronounced more than 100 anathemas (excommunication/damnation) against all who accepted any Reformation teaching.

    6th Session, Canon 9:

    If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification…let him be anathema.

    7th Session, Canon 4:

    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [canons and decrees of the Church] are not necessary for salvation but…without them…men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification…let him be anathema.

    THAT is a complete contradiction to what the Bible teaches about redemption and salvation.

    Ephesians 2:

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    If one has to pay for a gift, then it ceases to be a gift.

    God bless,

    ~BTG

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Hi Bill

    What do you exactly mean by “a RAID!!!”?

    Would that be a “virtual raid” pertaining to you and your cohorts posting more childish comments to me, or are you implying something else?

    With all of your previous threats towards me, it’s unclear what your intentions are.

    ~BTG

    Webster’s Dictionary

    Definition of Raid

    : a surprise attack on an enemy by soldiers or other military forces

    : an occurrence in which police suddenly enter a place in a forceful way to find criminals, illegal drugs, etc.

    : an act of going into a place (such as a bank) in order to steal something

  • Bill Tilghman

    You can say what you like, but the language pertains to government not having the power to create a state sponsored religion or being able to discriminate against who, how or what the individual citizen does in the worship of God, or gods. It neither delineates what is acceptable or not as far as faith is concerned, but it does not say anything about no faith – to do so would be calling no religion a religion in itself. This has been misinterpreted as freedom FROM religion, when the language is clear that it is intended to allow freedom to worship as one sees fit. There is a difference, and lately this misinterpretation has been used by the ACLU and other groups to attack the beliefs of those of faith. You are certainly free to not worship as you see fit, but in the last 50 years the misinterpretation has been used as a cudgel to beat down those who do have faith and worship.

    In other words, they are using the power of the courts and state to persecute those who choose to believe, and that is wrong and a perversion of the First Amendment.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Re: “see no real need to get personal about what the other guy thinks. That is where I am coming from – a sort of live and let live attitude.”

    Excuse me, that is exactly what you have done here. Coming in here and attacking anyone who doesn’t share your erroneous opinions concerning the Bible or anything else is hypocritical at best. Just as one has the right to espouse and practice their religious views, so does one to refute it. Since you failed to provide a substantive argument and resorted to ad hominem attacks, you failed in refuting anyone but yourself.

    FWIW, to make the claims you have made in this thread, you disregarded all three Laws of Thought: identity, non-contradiction, and excluded middle.

    ~BTG

    2 Timothy

    4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

  • Guardian

    He never referred to the Pope as God. That is an assumption YOU made.

  • Guardian

    “The Pope is NOT the Holy Father.” — BTG

    “I’m sorry but you have been deceived into false doctrines.” — BTG

    “Excuse me, that is exactly what you have done here. Coming in here and attacking anyone who doesn’t share your erroneous opinions concerning the Bible or anything else is hypocritical at best.” — BTG

    Hypocrite.

  • Guardian

    According to the Oxford and Merriam Webster Dictionaries:
    Full Definition of HOLY FATHER
    : pope 1
    See Holy Father defined for English-language learners »

    According to The Free Dictionary:
    Holy Father
    n. Roman Catholic Church Used as a title and form of address for the pope

  • Guardian

    It’s amusing how you get all wound up with your ‘laws of thought’ as if that adds any points to your rhetoric. You lambaste someone for “attacking anyone who doesn’t share your erroneous opinions” , effectively doing what you accused him of doing, after you come in here and declare with great righteous indignation that “The Pope is NOT the Holy Father” , which he set you straight on and then get all sanctimonious.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    “If you call a tail a leg, then how many legs does a cow have? Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one.” ~Attributed to Abraham Lincoln

    I never denied that the Catholics refer to their Pope as the “Holy Father”. Funnny thing is, that is what the Bible calls God. Which came first, God or the Pope?

    Out of curiosity, are you Catholic or are you just part of Bill Tilghman’s “raiding” party?

    ~BTG

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Could you please define “attacking”?

    The reason I ask is because it seems you believe anyone who states the truth is attacking anyone who presents falsehoods.

    Thanks,

    ~BTG

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Hi Guardian,

    You sure have been busy spamming me with nonsense. Perhaps if you wouldn’t reject the ‘laws of thought’ you would be able to at least compose an intelligent retort.

    Something tells there is more to this than my comments here. Please educate yourself before spamming me again with your fallacious opinions.

    Thanks,

    ~BTG

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    As I just mentioned in a different reply to you, the Bible refers to God alone as the one and only Holy Father. To refer to the Pope as such IS calling him God which is blasphemy.

    Exactly what do you consider yourself a guardian of? It’s certainly not the truth or reason.

    ~BTG

  • Sam Sung

    Patriots: It is time to go on the offensive against the illusions and superstitions of today’s liberals and progressives: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878

  • Tony R

    Lets use that logic law you referred to.

    The Catholic Church was in existence before the Canon of
    Scripture was defined because the Catholic Church decided what books are to be included
    in the New Testament and which were to be excluded. This was in 393 in Hippo and 397 in Carthage. Doesn’t
    logic demand that we would only include the books that followed what we
    believed? Logic.

    With over 30,000 different denominations doesn’t logic
    demand that most are interpreting the bible according to their own
    interpretation which the bible warns against?
    Then, how illogical is it to use the Book that was put together by the
    Catholic Church, passed on through the centuries by the Catholic Church to all
    of a sudden try and use it against Her?

    Also to refute the Catholic Church with sola Scriptura doesn’t
    make sense because sola Scriptura is not in the bible.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Hi Tony,

    FYI, sola Scriptura means the Bible alone.

    You employ many logical fallacies but you can’t defend your Church’s contradictions of the Bible. It doesn’t matter who chose the books, that is irrelevant to this dialogue. It’s a proven fact that the Church of Rome is preaching a different gospel than what is written in the Bible. Pointing to the different denominations doesn’t refute the fact that there is only one correct interpretation. Your are trying to get around the law of non-contradiction. Let me help you out, you can’t, there is only one truth or there is no truth at all. Your dabbling in Relativism.

    “Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.”~Avicenna

    The Bible isn’t some song whose meaning is left to the listener’s own imagination. Your Church has condemned and killed many for having a legitimate opposing view to their own, so you are chasing your own tail on that one. Many of the denominations differ on minor points and practices, but not about Christ alone being our sole redeemer.

    John 10:9

    I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

    1 Timothy 2:

    5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [d]given at [e]the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a [f]preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

    Where does this “Vicar of Christ” come from and why do Catholics continually pray to Mary?

    Don’t you find it strange that you cannot defend the Church of Rome using the Bible? And isn’t it equally as odd that you are stuck doing that instead of promoting the New Testament?

    Just last year, Pope Francis offered plenary indulgences to anyone who followed the Catholic Church’s event on Twitter and other social media services. Despite whatever authority the Vatican has assigned themselves, that is not in their power to do.

    My friend, I do not say these things in attempts to make you angry, I say them because it’s God’s own Truth. The Catholic Church is selling you and everyone else eternal damnation with their chicanery. As the Bible clearly states in no equivocal terms, Christ Jesus alone is our savior and your Church condemns anyone who says differently in their Canons to this very day.

    I sincerely pray that you and your fellow Catholics will seek the truth that is Christ Jesus and be saved.

    John 14:

    5Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

    Matthew 7:

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

    On a lighter note, have you ever heard the story of John Newton, the man who wrote ‘Amazing Grace’? If you haven’t and have time, you should watch the youtube video. It truly is an inspiring story.

    God bless,

    ~BTG

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33fA-oeuvFs

  • Guardian

    In answer to your last question – neither.

    In reference to the rest of your comment, thank you for proving my point.

    *I never denied that the Catholics refer to their Pope as the “Holy Father”.* Well, I never said you did. What you did say was that the Pope was not the Holy Father, which is wrong.

    You can dispense with your silly use of quotes. They do nothing for you.

  • Guardian

    Define attacking? People shouldn’t have to define everything for you, – look it up.

    Just because you think certain things are “truths” or “falsehoods” doesn’t mean that they are. They are only your opinions.

    Your Welcome,

    ~GFY

  • Guardian

    I don’t reject the laws of thought, but I don’t have to wave them around in print to add weight to my comments, like you do.

    Look up the definition of the word “fallacious”, and then prove that my opinions are fallacious and yours aren’t, and be specific.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    I know perfectly well what the definition of the word “attack” is, but I don’t think you do. Or is it that you are incapable of reasoning to apply the term properly? All of your replies to me suggest as much.

    FYI, opinions cease to be opinions when they are supported by facts. Just because you deny objective truths, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Your welcome,

    ~BTG

  • Guardian

    The Bible is a translation. God is the Heavenly Father, or referred to as “God, the Father”. The Pope is the Holy Father. Look it up, learn the difference.

    You are the last one to talk about truth or reason.

    ~GFY

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Prove to you? LOL

    I don’t believe anyone can prove anything to you.

    God bless,

    ~BTG

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    The accusations and opinions coming from a relativist don’t really concern me.

    Have a nice day and God bless,

    ~BTG

  • Guardian

    You have provided no facts, only your opinions. If you can’t comprehend my replies, that is your problem.

  • Guardian

    You certainly can’t – you have shown that to be the case. It may be hard to admit, but you must someday realize that your opinions are not facts.

  • Guardian

    Not my accusations or opinions, just facts, something you are unfamiliar with.

    Look up the definition of the word “fallacious”, and then prove that my opinions are fallacious as you have claimed in another comment and yours aren’t, and be specific. You still can’t do that.

  • Jenn

    for obummer the truth hurts so of course he is going to lie.what a total M O R O N…

  • Tony R

    You can try to dismiss the fact that the Catholic Church
    gave you the bible that you are using. When my Church did this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they discerned that some
    books belong in the New Testament and some didn’t. This was done also by interpretation. What happened 1200 yrs. later was that Luther,
    Calvin, Zwingli and others decided to make their own type of Christianity. I can defend the Church that Jesus Christ
    started which is the Catholic Church using the book that the Holy Spirit guided us to complete. The problem is every time I do this I have to learn where the person I am speaking to is coming
    from. It is new every single time. You can try to dismiss the differences as minimal. That is simply not true. The bibles are almost always different. The interpretations are almost always
    different. So I try to remind some and to show others who are ignorant to the history of Christianity when you say
    that the Catholic Church is un-biblical, it makes no sense at all. We put the book together and passed it on
    throughout the years writing it by hand till the printing press was made. Now people who come along almost one thousand two-hundred years later are trying to tell us “well that book that you have
    been writing by hand for hundreds of years… you got it all wrong. This is what
    it really means” Your position makes no sense at all. Why argue with your interpretation when just the idea of sola-Scriptura doesn’t work. This is why Martin Luther said at the
    end of his life that “there are now as many theologies as there are heads!” He
    opened up Pandora’s Box with the whole idea of sola-Scriptura. Without any authority to answer to you can
    discern however you please.

    You will not admit to the truth of how come so many different denominations appeared not long after Gutenberg printed the
    bible. People wanted to interpret the bible their own way. 2 Tim 4:3 for the
    time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching….

    For us the Pillar and foundation of Truth is the Church, 1 Tim 3:15. Not sola Scriptura. Nowhere does the bible teach that the bible is the Pillar of truth. The bible is a part
    of the Church. Scripture, Tradition and Magisterial teachings working together. Before you try to reinterpret, read the Scripture above without contradiction. The Pillar and foundation of Truth is the
    Church. When the Catholic Church included Timothy as a book in the New Testament don’t you think we believed it was talking about us? Did the Holy
    Spirit deceive us in believing that it was us because that is what you are implying by saying that we are unbiblical. Its like your saying that the Holy
    Spirit led us to believe we were the Church talked about here but it was just so that we would include the book. 1200 yrs. later the truth would come out.
    Google a verse. Say, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of
    mouth or by letter of us.”

    New International Version

    New living Translation

    English Standard Version

    New American Standard Bible

    King James Bible

    Holman Christian Standard Bible

    International Standard Version

    NET Bible

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    GOD’S Word Translation

    Jubilee Bible 2000

    King James 2000 Bible

    American King James Version

    American Standard Version

    Douay-Rheims Bible

    Darby Bible Translation

    English Revised Version

    Webster’s Bible Translation

    Weymouth New Testament

    World English Bible

    Young’s Literal Translation

    Which one do I use? All
    of these translations were on 1 page! Who stands in authority over the publishers to
    make sure that they translate according to the true interpretation of
    Scripture? No one because of sola Scriptura. The all believe they are being led by the
    Holy Spirit. If they contradict the Catholic Church’s interpretation they aren’t led by the same Spirit that led us to include the books we included in the New Testament. Right, the
    Catholic Church did not decide the Canon of Scripture alone. It was guided by the Holy Spirit in its interpretation of Scripture on what books to keep and which to put aside. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
    Cardinal John Henry Newman.

  • The Blue Tail Gadfly

    Re: ” I can defend the Church that Jesus Christ started which is the Catholic Church using the book that the Holy Spirit guided us to complete.”

    Then why haven’t you?

    First of all, Jesus Christ didn’t start the Church of Rome and the Apostle Peter was not a Pope, let alone the first Pope. He had no higher authority than the other Apostles which is nothing more than your Church rewriting history to gain power over all others.

    Second, you haven’t refuted one thing I have said in all your fallacious rhetoric because you can’t. The Church of Rome is a walking contradiction to the Bible. No where in the Bible does it give the Church of Rome it’s authority which is why they have to go outside of Scripture to justify their cult practices.

    For you to believe that your Church of man is incapable of apostasy, despite the FACTS to the contrary, is highly disturbing to say the least. There is no further need for me to continue with you, you refuse to reason properly in order to continue blindly worshiping your false gods: the “Vicar of Christ” and the Muslim God that your infallible “Holy Father” says is his God too. No mistaking who the Babylonian Mother of Harlots is in Revelation 17.

    http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/sevenhills.asp

    I still pray for your soul, but I fear time is running out. Only Jesus Christ saves…

    ~BTG

    1 Tim. 6:

    3 “If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing…”

    2 Corinthians 4:

    3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

  • Panamajax

    Well, gee whiz! Imagine a psychopath, witch includes a distinct sociopathic tone, would lie…..in Church! Goddamn, I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices these things! Since I’m not in the U.S. anytime soon, it’s all up to you folks. So….when’s the trial? (or trials, more correctly)

    My Pappy used to sing this little ditty, when we’d be fishin;

    “Ya take all the rope in Texas, and find a tall Oak tree, and hang up all them bad boys, for all the people to see” I can only think of that first verse right now……..