Glenn interviewed Aaron Klein on radio today, he and his wife own and operate Sweet Cakes by Melissa. They were targeted and attacked after they declined to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. The media labeled this hate, but these bakers had actually served this particular couple several other times. The only reason they declined is because this wedding cake went against their own personal religious beliefs. Watch the interview and judge for yourself -- does this sound like a hateful person?
Below is a rush transcript of this segment:
GLENN: So glad that you're here today. I want to -- I'm really excited to introduce you to a couple that you knew the story of. You know the story about the Christian baker who lost their shop in Oregon because they refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. Well, I met the -- I met the Klein's. I met Aaron and Melissa Klein, what, Saturday in Washington, D.C. and there's a great story on them on the Blaze today. But I really want you to hear from Aaron himself and is Melissa with you or not.
AARON: No. Melissa is at home with the kids. I'm actually at work.
GLENN: You guys lost your bakery. Tell me the story quickly in your own words of what happened.
AARON: Well, you know, marriage was defined by the State of Oregon's Constitution as between a man and a woman up until I believe it was May of this year. Our belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. And the Bible coincides with that.
You know, we -- we -- you know, we had a small bakery. We did wedding cakes. Birthday cakes. All sorts of cakes.
In January 2013, we had a gal come in and asked us to basically create a piece of artwork for something the Bible clearly states is, you know, not the definition of marriage. So through all this, we've ended up losing our shop due to some really mean-spirited tactics that was used by -- I wouldn't say all the LGBT community. Because we met quite a few of them that are really nice, but there are some that really wanted us to close our doors. And through everything that's been done. You know, they've harassed the wedding vendors that we did business with. They protested. Boycotted. In fact, there's still an only boycott on Facebook going on. And I get it. They killed the wedding end of our business and we did have to close our doors last September. And, you know, I went to back to work driving trucks. So...
GLENN: Now, I saw the wedding cakes. My father was a baker, and he was one of the best cake decorators I'd ever seen. Since he was a little boy, he worked in my grandfather's bakery, and all he wanted to do was decorate cakes. And so he just -- he ice cakes and ice cakes and ice cakes over and over again. And he was just an amazing artist. I've seen your wedding cakes. They're absolutely beautiful. I've met you guys this weekend. You guys have this in your DNA. So what are you going to do now?
AARON: The thing is, we dedicated everything we did in our shop to the glory of God just as we do everything else in our lives. It's all an act of worship. To go against what the Bible says -- how can you glorify God when you're doing something strictly against what his Word says.
GLENN: Before you go any further, I want to read something your wife said in the story on the Blaze: Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is, you disagree with somebody's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. Second is that to love someone means you must disagree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense.
So if I'm a listener and I'm hearing you talk about this, you're talking about the Bible an awful lot, and I'm a listener, and I don't believe the Bible and I'm hearing, okay, get over the Bible thing and whatever. You're a hater. Can you address that and kind of what your wife said in The Blaze story?
AARON: Okay. She posted that to a business page. And that's a quote from Rick Warren. So yeah, it's very true. It's not about hate. It's not about -- it's strictly about adhering to our faith. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but I expect that I would get the freedom the constitution provides me to do that.
GLENN: So if somebody comes into your -- this is where I am -- look, I believe what I believe. But if you're gay or lesbian, you're telling me you can't change your point of view. Well, I'm telling you the same thing about my lifestyle. I believe in God.
There's times I don't want to believe in this stuff. It's not easy. Just like you would say if you're gay, it's not easy being gay in today's world. I know. It's not easy to be religious in today's world as well. So we have that in common.
So what you choose to do with your life is your deal, man. That's your deal. This is mine. Can't I respect you and say, first of all, why do you want a cake made from somebody who doesn't believe you're doing the right thing? And second of all, just go find somebody else to make a cake. I don't hate you. Can't I have my right to who I am as well?
AARON: And that's what it is in a nutshell. We have no problem making cakes for anybody, any sexual preference. It was that specific event, you know. And, like I said, down there in D.C. they're return customers. It was not the first time they came in. It was not about hate. It was not about discrimination. It was strictly about the definition of marriage and what I believed to be true.
GLENN: So you knew them? They were repeat customers. Did you know them more than just, hey, thanks very much for stopping by. Did you know them?
AARON: They had come in and actually ordered a wedding cake for one of the girl's moms and paid for it a couple years prior. I'm horrible with names and faces. So I didn't recognize her right off the bat. It wasn't until I actually got the complaint from the DOJ that I realized who it was.
STU: You brought up a great point, too, which is the Oregon constitution specifies that marriage is between a man and a woman. This is an amendment approved in 2004 by 13 points in Oregon. I mean, they're basically asking you to make a cake for an event that the constitution says is illegal.
PAT: And then you lost your place because of it. That's --
AARON: The odd part about it is the state of Oregon was actually in violation of their own statute. All the county clerks of the state of Oregon were not issuing same-sex marriage licenses, which actually puts them in violation of their own statute. They're expecting me to abide to something the state itself won't abide by, which is very ironic and hypocritical.
PAT: How did you guys not turn out -- I mean, you don't sound bitter about all this. I think I would have been.
AARON: Well, if you read the book of James, it says to consider it pure joy when you're persecuted for the name of Christ. If they're going to persecute me for standing by God's word, then it's pure enjoy.
GLENN: I have to tell you, I met you guys, Pat was pissed at me because I didn't walk you over to his highness Pat, but he was like, they were there? I didn't meet them? I'm like, I'm sorry your royal highness, but my wife spent some time talking to you both, and I found you both very reasonable, kind, courteous, quiet, gentle, I really felt you guys were really good people, which is good to know. Because there are some people like, yeah, them gays, I'll tell you what. You know, what is that?
AARON: That attitude is not an attitude of love. We're supposed to show the love of Christ to all people we meet. To be downright spiteful and hateful would be wrong, and that's me. Despite the lies that have been spread, it's not about that. You know, I liken it to: If your child wants to go run and play in the streets, they might throw a fit if you tell them no. But you don't let them do it, because that's not loving. In this situation, by no means am I calling anyone a child, but I'm saying I won't help someone do something that might be detrimental to their salvation.
GLENN: It doesn't matter what you think is right or wrong about me. You tell me about my lifestyle. You know, stand in line. I got a lot of people telling me what to do. What matters to me is that we all retain our right to be who we are and really celebrate diversity. They have a right to go do that. Go do that. That's fine.
PAT: It's amazing that wasn't a violation of your religious sensibilities. It's amazing to me that somehow the Constitution, the first amendment didn't protect you guys.
AARON: Yeah. It's totally being ignored by this administrative court. They've totally ignored all constitutional rights. In fact, they've said it's not allowed in the court. The attorney general of the state of Oregon has to take care of that. I don't know. It's a totally different scenario. Brad Avakian, the Commissioner of Bureau, Labor, and Industry, seems to be the judge, the jury, and the executioner.
GLENN: So have you changed your mind at all on like where you live and what you do and --
AARON: I actually don't live in the Portland metro area. You know, and honestly, we're supposed to be salt and light. If I go run and hide, I can't be salt and light. That's one of those things where, you know, change of venue might be nice, but then, again, I'm going to go where God leads me.
STU: This brings up an interesting question, which is, when do we get cake?
GLENN: I thought your interesting question was going to be this: We have 400,000 square feet down in Texas, why don't we have a bakery there?
PAT: That's an excellent question.
GLENN: I do believe a few things fall into place. We may have to have our own bakery at the studios. I'm just saying.
Aaron, God bless you and your wife, Melissa. I urge everyone to read the article on the Blaze. Aaron or maybe Melissa gave a great compliment, they said thank you for having a website that actually cared about getting the story right. I can't imagine how many stories were written about you two and it was not -- it wasn't exactly accurate.
AARON: Yeah. Well, a lot of them were just down right dishonest. But yeah, we really appreciate TheBlaze doing such a good job of telling the truth and telling it like it is. And it was really nice meeting you guys and I appreciate all you do.
GLENN: Thank you very much and it probably was -- the highlight was not meeting Pat. Aaron, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
AARON: Not a problem.