GLENN: Stage 19 in the Mercury Studios in Dallas, Texas. Mark Meckler is joining us. He's with Article V ConventionOfStates.com. Welcome, Mark. How are you?
MARK: I'm glad to be here. Always better when I'm in Texas.
GLENN: Yeah, I know.
We were just talking about this historic opportunity. You know, the confirmation hearings are happening this week, and a lot of liberals are really freaked. And I'm not talking about the ones that are in Congress, because I think they'll play to anybody who will give them their power. But the average person is, for the first time in eight years, afraid of exactly the same things we were afraid of. Right?
MARK: It's really interesting how the narratives converged. You know I'm from California, and suddenly in California you have people on the left talking about nullification and succession, which apparently was the province of the rightwing crazy fringe, is now the province of the leftwing crazy fringe. Everything comes full circle.
GLENN: Correct. So I'm talking to my friends who are telling me great things from inside of the Trump administration, that they're gonna make some real changes, etc., etc. And I keep saying, but they're not structural changes. That is just reversing legislation or reversing executive orders. We have to have Constitutional changes. Otherwise we're gonna play this back and forth every four or eight years.
MARK: You know, I'm in the fight for my kids and my grandkids and our posterity, and you're exactly right. Even if we presume that we're gonna get great stuff out of this administration, it's temporary because the pendulum will swing. You know we all look at the map, the red map with excitement after the election. If you take that same map and look at it and only count voters age 18-35, the entire map is blue. So, you're gonna see some demographic shift in this country over time, and if we don't make the structural changes that protect liberty, then we're in trouble. And that's what the Founders knew, right. They knew it was about structure and not about people.
GLENN: So tell me some of the new things that are happening. You know, when we talked to you it was just before the election.
MARK: Yeah, it was right before the election.
GLENN: So now, tell me what's happening on the ground. Is there more steam to get there, less steam?
MARK: Yeah, there's a lot more steam. And I think because the public sentiment in the country is just continuing to be anti-DC. And now, again, this weird alignment, both sides are anti-DC. Folks on the right, we've always been skeptical of concentrated power at the federal government level. Folks on the left are jumping on that bandwagon talking states rights and federalism for the first time. So, you have this sort of unity of narrative. Different purpose coming out of the narrative, but a unity of narrative.
GLENN: What's the purpose from the left?
MARK: Well, from the left it's to defend themselves against Donald Trump and federal overreach. And then a lot of the things that we say, conservatives, we want to defend ourselves against the federal government all the time, in the image of the Founders. The left, it's about personality and people. So now they fear Trump, they fear a Republican Congress, they fear these people coming through the confirmation hearings, they fear a conservative Supreme Court, so now they're on the bandwagon, at least temporarily, about federalism.
GLENN: So, do you trust the people that are getting involved. Because, you know, we have been very leery of a highjack, which last time you were here you explained just cannot happen. It cannot happen because of the laws and the rules of Article V. But are there any states like California that, I guess they would be alone, wouldn't they? I mean, if they came up with their list of things and it wasn't the same, then --
MARK: Well, and they will come up with their list of things, and they will attempt to introduce them at any convention. And if they're not germane, if they don't fit the rails that have been set for a convention, somebody from Texas or North Carolina will stand up and object that it's not germane, and it will be ruled out of order.
GLENN: Texas could say, "We move to -- we move for secession." And it would --
MARK: It's not germane. Right. And so that will be objected to, and we'll move on.
You know, we saw sort of the ultimate example of that this week. I thought it was really interesting to see of all people Joe Biden shut down the protests over the count on the electoral college, right?
And he basically said, "Look, there are rules. It's game over. We follow the rules. It's an institutional thing."
And he shut down the protests in Congress over the electoral count. So rules work, institutions work. This is the way our country is set up. We've survived a lot of crises. We know how to do this kind of stuff in this country.
GLENN: So what are the states that are moving -- where do you need help?
MARK: Well, I think, to me, the most important state -- I'm not saying it just because I'm here, is Texas. Texas is big. Texas leads the way in the South and the Midwest. Always other states look to Texas. It's really extraordinary what's happened in the state of Texas.
They've named the resolution in the Senate SJR2, the second joint resolution. That's a priority. The first one is reserved, by the way, for Texas constitutional matters, specifically in Texas. So we are the very first priority outside of the Texas Constitution.
By the way, that same thing is happening all over the country. In Utah, we have a low priority number. Just found out, in Missouri, we've got a low priority number. Those are three states that for me are really important right now: Texas, Utah, and Missouri. Likely to happen early -- very high priority states for us.
GLENN: So what is the word? Because I have heard that here in Texas, there are many in the G.O.P. who are, again, kind of the progressive arm of the G.O.P. saying, "Oh, it's not so bad. We don't need to have this now." Are we -- who is winning on that argument?
MARK: I think we, those who say we need to have it now, are winning. But I think there are those who are saying it. And to be fair, there are even some good conservatives who are saying that. They're excited by the fact that Trump has taken office. They're hearing the same things you and I are hearing from the transition team. What I say about that is, with all due respect to the Trump administration, be -- don't be Trump drunk. And what I mean by Trump drunk is, if you think things are going to change, then you're not looking at Congress, right? This is the exact same Congress that didn't stand against Obamacare. This is the exact same Congress, same leadership that didn't stand against illegal, unconstitutional executive amnesty. So the idea that these guys are suddenly going to get a spine -- all we have to do is look what they tried to do with the ethics office. Look what they just tried to do with the pork barrel spending and earmarks. Same Congress. So the idea that suddenly we're going to have a magical transformation in Washington, DC -- if you believe that, then you're Trump drunk.
GLENN: And anybody who is a real conservative should -- even -- if I had Ronald Reagan in the office, I would still be for Article V. And I would think Ronald Reagan would be for Article V as well.
MARK: In fact, he was. And he spoke about it, and he was in favor of Article V.
Now, look, Reagan, the great conservative icon, with everything he tried to do and everything he said he was going to do was such a great communicator of conservative ideals. The federal government grew under Ronald Reagan's watch.
MARK:: He specifically set out to do away with the Department of Education. He appointed a secretary to do that. It grew under his watch. So the idea that somehow Donald Trump or any other individual is going to magically transform the federal Leviathan is just fantasy.
GLENN: You can't. Because -- I mean, even if -- if you've ever run a company, and you're like, "I've got to shut this division down," that division will spend all of its time trying to find ways to show you, you cannot shut it down.
MARK: Absolutely. So, you know, Glenn, that's another thing. When I talk about being Trump drunk, this idea that 1.35 million federal employees are simply going to roll over, give up their jobs, give up their benefits -- I mean, this is not to be critical against them. It goes against human nature. They're not going to be in favor of shrinking their own agencies, just not human nature.
GLENN: Okay. So how do people get involved?
MARK: ConventionofStates.com. And what we need is people to get serious. Go there. Sign petition. Volunteer to be involved. That's the most important thing they can do.
GLENN: What do you do to get involved?
MARK: So primarily what you do is we generate the people who are interested in helping. I mean, there are literally now 2.1 million volunteers in the field. We need people who are willing to just help send the emails, make the calls. Make sure people show up for legislative hearings. You know, we're going to have the governor here in Texas at the end of the month, we intend to have over 1,000 people there. So that takes people calling. You can't just send emails. And one of the things our organization believes in is high touch. We definitely use technology, but we believe in reaching out and building this network of people.
GLENN: Thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing. I think you guys are absolute patriots and the answer to the cancer that is eating us. Over 100 years ago, the progressives introduced a cancer that was designed to eat the Constitution. It's time to look for the pill that the Founders gave us if the Constitution were being eaten. And it's Article V. Thank you so much.
MARK: Thank you for your support, Glenn. I appreciate it.
GLENN: It's ConventionofStates.com. Volunteer. ConventionofStates.com.