GLENNMarch 09, 2017

4 Steps to Break Down Walls From a Former Westboro Baptist Church Member

Megan Phelps-Roper, who grew up indoctrinated with hatred in the Westboro Baptist Church, left the church in 2012 after what can only be described as an awakening.

"She left the church a while ago, and recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world," Co-host Stu Burguiere said Thursday on The Glenn Beck Program.

Interestingly, Phelps-Roper's conversion began in the hateful universe of social media, where she encountered a pattern that repeated during her 144-character conversations on Twitter.

Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

Concerned with the current state of division in the country, Phelps-Roger has identified four steps on how to approach people with different ideas, especially on social media platforms:

1. Don't assume bad intent

2. Ask honest questions

3. Stay calm

4. Make the argument, explain

"If you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. Unfortunately, most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop, but we're all being led to believe that nothing will ever change with the other side," Glenn said. "That's a lie, and she's proof positive of that lie."

Listen to this segment from The Glenn Beck Program:

GLENN: I want to get to the media bias and American kids. Can they spot fake news stories? Can they spot bias? We'll give that to you here in just a second.

STU: So Megan Phelps-Roper. She was in the Westboro Baptist Church. So Phelps is the name.

GLENN: Right.

STU: Fred Phelps was the head guy.

GLENN: Is she -- is she a child of?

STU: No, I think she's married.

GLENN: Okay. So she was a child of Fred?

STU: Yeah. She grew up in -- or, it might be grandchild of Fred. Fred is -- I could be --

GLENN: Have we lost him?

STU: He's very old. I don't know if we lost him. I don't keep up with every iteration of what goes on in the Westboro Baptist Church. But I do find it a fascinating topic, in that it's -- they're just so crazy. And to see -- if you don't know who they are, they're the people that go and protest military funerals. They say God hates Jews and gays.

GLENN: All kinds of stuff. Really bad.

STU: You know, they're the worst part of every news story, basically.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: They come out -- gosh, this is a tragedy. Now it's worse. They're able to do it every single time.

GLENN: Right. Right. Right.

STU: So she grew up -- and, you know, I know we had someone who left the Westboro Baptist Church a long time ago. And I can't remember if it was her or if it was someone else because a couple people have left. But almost everybody at the Westboro Baptist Church is from the Phelps family. It's like 80 percent Phelps family members.

GLENN: Boy.

STU: So she left the church a while ago. And recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world. Now, you might not want to be associated with someone who is in the Westboro Baptist Church --

GLENN: But she's out of the Westboro Baptist Church.

STU: She's out --

GLENN: She's out and she's talking about why she left. And for everybody who says, "Well, you don't -- the left won't listen." Let's listen to how the woman -- do you think the left is less extreme than the Westboro Baptist Church?

STU: If you could communicate with someone like that and break down those walls, you could do it with anybody.

GLENN: And listen to what she said. How it was done. Listen to this.

MEGAN: In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter. Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

How had the other come to such outrageous conclusions about the world?

Sometimes the conversation even bled into real life. People I had sparred with on Twitter would come out to the picket line to see me when I protested in their city.

A man named David was one such person. He ran a blog called Jewlicious. And after several months of heated, but friendly arguments online, he came out to see me at a picket in New Orleans. He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert from Jerusalem, where he lives. And I brought him kosher chocolate and held a "God hates Jews" sign. There was no confusion about our positions, but the line between friend and foe was becoming blurred. And it changed the way we spoke to one another. It took time, but eventually these conversations planted seeds of doubt in me.

GLENN: Now, imagine how many Jewish friends this guy had who said, what, are you selling out? Don't you know she's using you? Don't you know, you're being pulled in? You're a sellout. You've got to stand against.

How many people she had in her life saying the same thing. But they both were being civil to each other. And -- and probably everyone in their life said, "It's not going to change anything." And look what happened. Do you have another cut from her?

PAT: Yeah.

STU: If you can win over the Westboro Baptist Church -- and she went on later. Something you said a million times. She said, the conversations always started, and neither of us changed our positions.

GLENN: Yep.

STU: Neither of us changed our principles. It wasn't -- it was just listening. You don't have to change your ideas. It was listening and communicating like your -- your friend.

GLENN: And then start talking about families and things you have in common.

STU: Yeah. And it helped, I mean, win over a Westboro Baptist Church member. And to the extent of how crazy that would be -- because you think of these people, I mean, they're obviously crazy.

GLENN: I mean, God hates Jews. God hates gays. I mean, you can't think of people who are more off their rocker than this --

PAT: She goes into that.

STU: Yeah. And to talk about how indoctrinated she was. She talks at the very beginning of this that the first protest she went to, she was five years old, protesting gays somewhere. Holding a sign she couldn't even read.

PAT: Uh-huh.

GLENN: Wow.

STU: That's how deeply she was in this. And she goes through this entire process. And through Twitter -- we think of all these good people being turned bad through Twitter. Here's someone who went through Twitter and turned her life from pure evil to something else.

MEGAN: My friends on Twitter took the time to understand Westboro's doctrines. And in doing so, they were able to find inconsistencies I had missed my entire life. Why did we advocate the death penalty for gays when Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? How could we claim to love our neighbor, while at the same time praying for God to destroy them?

The truth is that the care shown to me by these strangers on the internet was itself a contradiction. It was growing evidence that people on the other side were not the demons I had been led to believe.

These realizations were life-altering. Once I saw that we were not the ultimate arbiters of devine truth, but flawed human beings, I couldn't pretend otherwise. I couldn't justify our actions, especially our cruel practice of protesting funerals and celebrating human tragedy.

GLENN: Okay. Stop here for a second. Let's just put this together. Both sides have this problem. Both sides in one way or another is the Westboro Baptist Church. Both left and right. We have extremists on both sides.

But let's just think of -- for this audience, let's just think of the right -- or, the left thinks they're the arbiter of everything that is true. They're the -- we're not science deniers. We're not that way. You're the science denier.

Well, you aren't educated. We are educated. We have all the universities. They believe that everything intellectually is on their side. Right? So they're morally superior. They don't see the -- the disconnect between saying, let's march for women and yesterday, while this was going on, they were advocating -- the left was advocating and going against the CDC, saying, women are protesting the CDC because you men can't tell us not to drink during our pregnancy.

Well, I agree that we can't tell you what to do. That's your decision. But that doesn't seem like something you later in life will be proud of standing and marching for.

It doesn't seem logical, to me, that when all is said and done, you'll be proud that you marched for abortion for the killing of children. That at some point in your life, you, or most, I believe, will come to the determination that, you know, that is a child. Because there's no way. Because of science. It's going to force you. I'm not the science denier. You're the one that says, I don't want a scan. I don't want an ultrasound to happen. And give the women a chance to say, oh, my gosh, it is a child. If they have that scan and they say, I don't care. Well, that's a different subject.

But you have to admit that that is a child; otherwise, why would you say no to ultrasounds?

Which one of us is in this bubble? Now, I'm only using this side because both sides are in a bubble. But anybody who says that they cannot reach the left, you're -- listen to what she just said. It was by kindness on the internet, first. Kindness of not slamming back.

Because the left does see the right as a monster, just like many on the right see the left as a monster. They're not.

We're not. We disagree on things. And we ratchet it up because we're screaming at each other. But if we'll just start talking -- and better yet, listening. Listening first. To one another. You will find what I have found, wow, we have a ton in common.

Now, it's not going to change everything overnight. People say to me all the time, yeah, well, who have you changed? Well, nobody. But I will tell you, look how many people from the left have been on this show. Just two days ago, we had somebody on the left who said, you know what, I changed my mind. I'm actually not on the left. I'm on the right. And I was die-hard on the left. And now I've changed. So while I haven't personally done it, I think it is happening.

And if you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. And unfortunately most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop. But we're all being led to be convince that had nothing will ever change with the other side.

And so it's of no use. That's a lie. And she's proof positive of that lie. At least I think so.

STU: At the most extreme level. If this isn't a proof of concept, I don't know what is.

[break]

GLENN: Craziest elections, our series continues in just a few minutes. Also, we want to talk to you a little bit about Obamacare. And Stu wants to give us the four steps that this woman from the Westboro Baptist Church said got me out of the church.

STU: Yeah, she identified these. Which I thought were interesting. One, don't assume bad intent. And that's something I like to use on social networks. Because it makes your -- it just makes your life better. You know, if you're constantly getting in fights with people, it's just annoying. And I've -- because people will insult you. Like I insult Jeffy all the time, and he knows it comes from a good place.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: But that's how I look at everybody who calls me Hitler on the internet.

PAT: They mean it in a nice way?

STU: They mean it in a joking way. And I just treat it that way. And I don't care. It makes me feel better.

GLENN: You know what, a lot of times I'll see people online. They'll say something like, you know, you're so mean to Glenn. And blah, blah. You know, the one defender. Blah, blah, blah. And they'll be like, no, I'm a big fan of the show. I was joking.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And so if you don't assume bad intent, it saves you a lot of angst.

STU: Yeah. And it also means you never get pissed off at the internet.

GLENN: Yes.

STU: So many people get obsessed in these little battles. They never bother me. I never care what you say about me. If you go with that principle, just don't assume it's bad. All these interactions wind up being better. And many times, by the way, you turn people around. There's people who are fans of the show that didn't like some things we said. They came out, they call us all sorts of names. If you respond nicely, typically they'll just turn around --

PAT: Yeah. I'm having a hard time finding the rainbow in all of that, during the election. When they were saying things like eat crap and die, I didn't think that was necessarily good-natured.

GLENN: But I will tell you -- I gave up. It was overwhelming at the time. But I will tell you, a lot of people will say, you know what, you're right. I'm sorry. I flew off the handle. I don't agree with you. But I appreciate it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: Step two. Ask questions. So that's a great thing to do.

PAT: Even the very existence of God. For if there be a God, he must surely rather --

GLENN: Shut up.

STU: But I mean, asking questions is important. And honest ones. Right? It's not just like trying to come up with a point and just saying what you believe and pushing other people. And then asking questions that aren't honest.

GLENN: Don't ask a question that you know the answer too.

PAT: Just trying to set people up.

GLENN: And you're just trying to trap people into it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: This one is very difficult for a lot of people. But if you do the other two, you can do this one, which is stay calm.

You know, the person who you're going up against in an argument, especially from the other side are going to say terrible things about it, why let it bother you? That's you. That's not them. That's you letting it bother you. You're making the choice to allow it to bother you. If you stay calm and don't let it bother you, you're able to kind of reason your way through the argument.

PAT: How amazing is it that this is coming from a Phelps -- the granddaughter of Fred Phelps, the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. This is astounding.

STU: Yeah, because it worked on her to get her out.

PAT: That is really amazing. She and her sister both got out.

STU: Yeah. It might have been her sister --

PAT: It might have been her sister Grace we talked to. I think so.

STU: We should see if she'll come on too. Because it's great.

And the last one is make the argument. Which that one didn't strike me as obvious when I was listening to that list. But if you're in a battle with someone on the left or you're in a battle with someone who is nuts and you're trying to actually persuade them, a lot of times I think because we believe, for example, low taxes are the right thing to do or abortion is wrong or whatever the belief is, it's so apparent to us, we treat it as if it's doctrine to everybody. And we don't bother to walk people through the step by step argument of how you actually get there. So many people have -- they start at their arrival point. I'm young. I'm in college. I'm a liberal. I'm a leftist, I love abortion.

PAT: Uh-huh.

STU: And the process very well may not have ever happened, where they made that decision organically. Where they walked through the steps in their head.

GLENN: You know, I got to get to the survey. The survey shows that most people -- and this includes teens -- and I will narrow it down to teens. But most people get their money from a friend, or I blog. A commentator of some sort. They haven't done the thinking. They get the opinion from someone else who may or may not have done all of the thinking themselves.

STU: Take the time to actually make the argument when you're talking to someone. Calmly. Don't assume their bad intent. You follow those few steps -- you're not going to win everybody over, nor should you care --

GLENN: Isn't it interesting, you're on the bandwagon.

PAT: I've been on the band freaking wagon. I brought these clips to the show.

GLENN: Listen to him now.

STU: Stay calm! That's all I'm saying. Stay calm!

GLENN: I'm assuming bad intent.

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Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: So it has been a little frightening this week. And you're looking at things.
And, you know, Donald Trump might seem calloused to some.

Because he will just say, you know, hey. Stop freaking out. Stop freaking out.

And it's easy to say that, as a negotiator. If you're negotiating in a company. And you can say to your staff, behind closed doors. Listen, we are going to do some stuff.

But I'm negotiating. Don't freak out. Anybody freaks out. We will lose the negotiation.

Don't freak out. He's been trying to do that.

But he has to say it on a global stage. Where everybody is watching him.

So he's trying to say, don't freak out. I've got this.

I've got this.

And it's required us to have faith.

And, you know, that's hard to give to a politician. Any politician.

Especially if you didn't vote for that politician. If you don't like Donald Trump. You're not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You will think he's destroying the country.

And it's really interesting. Because those who didn't vote for Donald Trump, because they thought he would destroy the country, most likely voted for the last administration.

And it didn't matter that they were literally on the take from one of our enemies.

Literally making millions of dollars, taking money, to influence decisions, from China.

It didn't matter that they were lying. They were cheating. That they were literally stealing from you, now we know, through USAID.

Through all of these NGOs. They were literally stealing from you.

Let alone, lying to you!

Remember when I told you about The Great Reset? Something ESG.

DEI.

All these things that we now are very, very well aware of, and we know. They are absolutely true.

They were implemented by the same people who said they were conspiracy theories.

I mean, that's the one thing I can't get past is the people. How do you get past?

How do you hate Donald Trump so much, that you can still run to the people who have lied to you over and over again?

About things that do matter. You know, when Donald Trump said, I have the biggest -- I had the biggest crowd ever!

It doesn't matter. If he's telling the truth or lying.

Does that matter?

No. We're not. We're not. We're not. Trying to undermine capitalism and go to a global government through ESG and DEI and the World Economic Forum.

That lie matters. That one matters. That one will matter for generations.

That one matters to your children and your grandchildren.

But for some reason, some people will just continue to dismiss that.

I want to remind you, that while we're in this situation, with China. First of all, China is the source of COVID.

Did you see this week, what they came out with, on -- that Biden covered up something we reported on, almost, I mean, within a couple of months of COVID.

We said, you know, we've been doing our homework on this. And there was an event with the global army. And all of the armies around the world, that were kind of war gaming and getting together. And our troops were there too.

And it was all in Wuhan. And they came home, and they were sick.

Remember that? And we were like, that might have been the first kind of outbreak of this.

And everyone called us conspiracy. They just -- they just released the documents that show that Joe Biden that afternoon. It was try.

And they buried it.

So we're dealing with a country like China. Really, really bad. You know that, and I know that.

We are dependent on China now! And that can't happen.

Do you remember what COVID was like, when everybody was like, oh, you can't get that. You can't get that.

You can't get surgical masks, because they're all made in China.

How many times did we, in 2020, 2021, 2022 say, I've never seen this in the United States before.

Wait a minute. There's a shortage of, what?

Okay. We weren't used to that.

Don't forget that. Don't forget that.

Especially when it comes to things like medication and rare earth minerals.

You may not know exactly what rare earth minerals are. Or your friends might not know.

But rare earth minerals are what -- it's going to control the world!

You don't have access to rare earth minerals, you can't make batteries or chips.

Okay? Nothing! China is buying them up from all over the world.

And we have created this country, where we can't even mine our own rare earth minerals, and underneath some of our mountains, we have more rare earth minerals than every place in the world combined!

But our government has shut that off. Now, why?

Again, may I remind you of what we just came out of.

The Cloward and Piven strategy. Cloward and Piven were these two university professors, back in the '60s. And when I first brought them up, back in the early 2000s, everybody was like, that's crazy.

She's just a sweet old lazy lady.

She didn't mean any of that stuff.

Yes, she did. Yes, she did.

She was the one at the White House, with Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton. That did the motor voter law.

That was her. Why?

Get people, everybody who is registered for a license. Get them registered to vote.

The whole thing -- her whole plan with her husband, Cloward and Piven, the whole thing was to collapse America. Economically.

Overwhelm the system, and collapse it economically.

We're dealing with that reality.

Okay?

Whether it's intentional or not.

We all know, we all know, you look back -- I look at this world, and you see, my gosh.

It's just a sprawling, chaotic system, that we've all been swept up in.

And it has strangely worked in many ways, until it doesn't work.

Because of his something like COVID.

And then all falls apart.

And you look at everything that we're doing. The endless wars.

The draining of our spirit.

And our resources. With these endless wars. Government spending like there's absolutely no tomorrow.

Printing money, until it feels like Monopoly cash. Globalism, that has left us leaning on our enemies, for things as basic as medicine and rare earth minerals.

Elites in our universities. And now running our schools. That are destroying our children, by teaching them to be victims.

And not teaching them how to empower themselves, by learning how to think!

Worst of all, the global governments. The World Economic Forum.

The WHO. The United Nations.

All of those things that have said to us, for years. No. We're not doing that. We're not doing that.

And now we know that they have been doing that. And with our help, from the elites in our own governments. And they have redesigned the world.

They have infiltrated a compliant press, that denies the truth.

They are continually defying common sense.

And they are defying the -- the will of the people. Openly.

Openly. Destroying our nations.

Destroying our history.

Our unity. Now arresting those who dare stand against them.

Whether it's the guy down the street on the school board or at the school board meeting. That is like, hey. You guys are all crooks. What are you doing to my kids?

Those who are protesting rape gangs in England.

Actual leaders running for higher office against the machine in France and Romania.

They tried to do it here.

This is all a house of cards.

And it's trembling under its own weight. And deep down. Every single one of us know it.

One way or another.

We all know it. Whether you're in denial or not, that's up to you. Even those on the left, the ones who have been loudest about keeping it going, all along. The ones who are now protesting and burning Tesla. Unless you're a useful idiot. Unless you're someone who is like, yeah. Our side is always right.

I will burn down a Tesla factory.

Unless you're just a useful idiot, you know, this is not about what's right and wrong.

This is about keeping the decline of this nation, and the entire West, on that path.

Because the elites, some of those that are tied to the last president, and his circle. Pushed this idea, of the Great Reset.

Which is a managed decline.

They see the cracks, just as much as I do. They're trying to control the fall, so they can control our future.

They know there's too much money to be lost. So let's get together with all the big banks. And the big corporations.

And finding out more and more. Our CIA. And everybody else.

And we will manage this collapse, keep the people down. Keep the people quiet. And then we will control everything, and we will reset. That's -- that's not -- God didn't give you the right to do that! God didn't give anybody for anybody to do that to a whole population of people!

So this is what we've been fighting against. And now Donald Trump is standing up and saying, that is so deep and metastasized. To save it, we have to turn this thing 180 -- this is the world's largest aircraft carrier, ever in the imagined nation of mankind. It's like an imperial stormtrooper ship. You know, of a -- of a -- you know, of an aircraft carrier.

Practically half a continent. And you have to turn that thing around!

So let me talk to you about fear.

Just that, should scare the hell out of all of you. Every single one of us, it should scare our children and our children's children. It should scare everybody within the sound of my voice. Because you know it's true!

There is trouble, whether it's intended or not, this doesn't work anymore!

Okay?

And basis we got off common sense. And common values.

Now the question is: Are you going to fear it, or are you going to face it?

And that's really what this election, I think was about. At least for me!

I see one guy who is willing to stand up and say the truth, and then actually follow through with action.

I don't see politicians follow through with action. He is actually not afraid of doing it! I'm not afraid of the truth.

You shouldn't be afraid of the truth. The truth will set us all free!

It's scarier to pretend it's not there!

Yeah. It's going to be tough. It's going to be really tough. We have some hard times ahead of us. There's no sugarcoating.

Nobody should sugarcoat that.

But it's, what is the goal at the end?

Is it for the elites to control everything?

Or is it to give you power?

Because both of them are risky. Both of them could end in violent revolution.

Both of them could fail.

But I know which side I want to win. I want the side that says, hey. These values are worth fighting for, and trying to save.

And it might be our World War II. It might be our Great Depression.

It might be our Civil War. But I would rather take that on, then pass it on to my children. Because I would have my children to have the opportunity sooner rather than later to be free.

The system has been running on fumes. And when it finally sputters out, we're going to feel the jolt, one way or another.

What's been happening this week, is dedicated people, who know what's going on. That says, okay.

I don't want the pain.

But I would rather take it on my shoulders now, than pass it on my kids.

Because we might be able to save it now, if we're honest about what we're facing.

Let me carry the load. Let me mess with the mess that we've made. So they don't have to!

Because a controlled fire is good!

Forest fires are good too, in the end. Long run. But a controlled fire is good.

It gets rid of all the underbrush. And it actually replenishes the soil, so something good could grow. And some controlled burns are going to happen. We have a chance here to rebuild, to rethink how we live.

We cannot continue to rely on far off enemies. We have to start looking closer to home. To our own soil.

To our own hands. To our own people.

We can make things again.

Not the things we made in the past.

We're never going back to those days.

Something new and better is on the horizon.

But we can grow things.

We can stand on our own 2 feet. It's time to say, you're 25 years old. You're not a kid. Adolescence now. Adolescence now lasts until you're 25!

In George Washington's time, you were an adult when you were 13!

Are we getting better or weaker? This is not going to be easy. But what is the -- what's at the end, will either be completely bogus, or real again.

And somewhere inside of me, I know we're not done yet.

World has been through collapse before, empires fall, systems crumble.

But the ones who make it, are the ones who dust themselves off.

So I am for one, willing to take the hit.

I am willing to grit my teeth. Because I believe in what's on the other side.

And I know it's -- you can say it's easy for you to say, Glenn. But I only succeed when you succeed.

I get paid a salary because you have the money to buy things that we advertise. So if you don't succeed, I don't succeed.

I lose everything too. I just want to encourage you to pray on this, this weekend.

And -- and find the strength to at least face the truth. And turn the page.

Because it's not just about survival.

It's a new start!

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST

Why Trump Must ANNIHILATE Mexico’s Cartels Like ISIS | The Glenn Beck Podcast | Ep 253

Ravaged by political corruption, decades of mass murder, unfettered human trafficking, and a spiraling fentanyl crisis, Mexico is a “fragile narco-state,” says Brandon Darby, co-founder of Breitbart’s Border and Cartel Chronicles. While Mexican media and journalists are silenced by fear of cartel retribution, Darby has spent years exposing atrocities like the mass graves found miles from our southern border, giving a voice to a nation ignored and terrorized into silence. Darby criticizes U.S. diplomatic efforts focused on reforming Mexico’s justice system and depicts a U.S.-Mexico border rife with lawlessness and violence, urging Trump to enact border policies that “treat the cartels like we treat al-Qaeda” and not to forget that “China is courting Mexico.”

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Transcript

Why Trump Must ANNIHILATE Mexico’s Cartels Like ISIS | The Glenn Beck Podcast | Ep 253