President Trump has promised to team up with Congressional Republicans to pass a “big, beautiful bill” chock full of campaign promises, like “no tax on tips,” “no tax on overtime,” and major spending cuts. But as the bill’s progress drags on, are the Republicans to blame, is Trump starting to compromise too much, and will he allow Democrats to increase taxes for the rich? Trump’s Director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought, joins Glenn to address the criticism. He discusses what Trump’s real strategy is, whether the bill will restore government spending to 2019 levels, how DOGE has been helping, whether the bureaucracy will actually shrink, and whether Congress will codify any of Trump’s policy changes.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Russell Vought. Office of Management and Budget. He is the director.

And one of my personal heroes. And I think yours too, Stu. Welcome to the program, Russell.

RUSSELL: Thanks, Glenn. Appreciate you having me on.

GLENN: You bet. All right. So I want to talk about the Republicans. Because I believe they're kind of a waste of space.

They are not doing the things that I think the president promised. And that is, cut the budget.

And cut regulation, in dramatic ways.

And President Trump has been playing very, very nice with them.

Trying to get them to do what I think is something. By passing the big, beautiful bill.

Can you tell me where we stand on this. And what's in it.

RUSSELL: We're working through. Right now, the House has a -- they're trying to meet their instructions.

They basically passed the budget that would have 100 -- or 1.5 trillion in savings.

And about four and a half trillion in tax relief.

And they are working through to get a bill that can pass.

And we're right there with them, trying to get it done.

And I think it would be a big savings. We could go north of that.

And I think that's -- that is the goal, to try to figure out, how to make this a historic opportunity, to both extend the tax cuts.

Do the tax cuts, the president wanted to do on the campaign. No tax on over time.

Some other things. No tax on Social Security benefits.

And then to really make sure that, you know, this is an opportunity to have some of the -- the highest reforms to mandatory spending since the 1990s. And there's a lot we can do in this area.

And I think that the House right now, is trying to put these bills together.

You know, we spend so much time debating whether you have a couple of bills. Or one bill.

We lost some time in that.

And we were trying to catch up.

And I think they're hard at work. And we have to be right by them, to help get them done.

GLENN: So when are we expecting to get this voted on, and possibly go through.

RUSSELL: My hope is that they pass it out of committee, the two big committees that we've seen. Energy and commerce. And then go to budget. And set up a vote thereafter on the House floor. That's our hope. That's what we're working toward.

I don't think they've noticed yet, the committees. But that's what we're working --

GLENN: So, Russ, can you do me a favor?

I mean, I'm sure you've done this to Congress. But I don't know the American people really understand how dire this situation is.

I mean, I've got a letter from a family member who I just love dearly. A couple weeks ago.

And he said, Glenn. What the president is doing. I said, well, what the president is doing, is trying to save the country from The Great Reset.

Because a reset is coming!

And you want it to be towards shareholder capitalism. Not stakeholder capitalism.

But with our debt the way it is, the interest rates, that we're now paying. Bigger than the defense budget.

No country has ever survived this.

Can you give us some idea on -- on how serious -- I mean, Congress needs to move a little quicker.

RUSSELL: Look. We have $36 trillion in debt.

When I left office the first time.

Under President Trump. We had about $300 trillion per year in interest costs.

Now it's above the defense spending. At $900 billion.

GLENN: 1.1.

RUSSELL: 1.1. So we've got this enormous interest cost, as a result. And it's one of the reasons why, we've incurred it from the administration on balance.

On taking dramatic actions through DOGE. Our budget that you referenced in the lead-up. The lowest non-defense spending, since 2000 adjusted for inflation.

And so -- and I think what we've been trying to do to deal with kind of the paralysis on Capitol Hill, is to change the reality on the ground.

I mean, I think that's what DOGE has done, in a fundamental way. And we will try to make those savings permanent in a couple of different ways.

But it's to force Congress.

If they want to be a part of the process, you know, come alongside of us.

But we will move inasmuch as we can. Within the parameters of the law, and the Constitution. And we will move as fast, and aggressively as possible. To change the reality on the ground. With reductions in force.

With reorganizations.

With doing a dramatic review of spending, that doesn't have to go out.

There's a whole thing.

Set of tools in our box.

That we will use aggressively. To get Congress moving in our direction.

Because we can't -- we cannot be in the normal situation, as an administration, where we just kind of send bills up. And wait on them.

GLENN: Right.

RUSSELL: We have one big bill that needs to occur.

We've tried to put everything, as we possibly can. On that.

Because it has procedural protection in the Senate.

But -- and even in that. It was part of our thinking, was to make sure we limit the number of things that we have to go to Congress for.

GLENN: The -- the taxes.

I mean, I was hoping that we were going to get new tax cuts.

And not just the -- not just the renewal of the Trump tax cut.

But I was hoping Congress would get serious.

And we would get even deeper than that.

And now, the White House, last night. The president last night tweeted.

You know, I know that Congress, you know, they're going to be wishy-washy on -- you know, they will get blamed, if they raise any taxes on the very rich.

But I will go along with it.

If they want to do that.

That's a little scary. We should be going the other way. Shouldn't we?

RUSSELL: Well, I think the president ran a set of tax proposals. That he was very excited about.

Committed out.

Designed toward the working class.

That we, from an economic standpoint. Also believe are really critical to getting more and more of -- of labor force participation at it, of this part of the economy.

And we think it would be a huge boon to the -- the impetus on the economy, the growth.

And so, we are living in a world where, you know, we don't -- we don't have the ability to have unlimited tax cuts.

GLENN: Right. But is it --

RUSSELL: You're seeing a lot of different navigation on that.

GLENN: But is it possible to go back to the 2019 budget. I mean, why can't we just reset and say, we're going back to that budget.

It was fine then. It will be fine now.

RUSSELL: We're trying to do that with the budget that you saw, that we sent out.

That is essentially what that budget represents. It's an effort to go back, non-adjusted for inflation.

It goes back to 2017. It's the 35 percent cut for most programs, when we account for maintaining infrastructure and veteran spending.

But that's what we're trying to do.
Do the entitlements, the mandatory spending, the interest. Do those have an impact on our ability to go back overnight to 2019?

Yes, they do.

And so that's really what we're trying to say.

And I do think that there's a newfound desire to cut spending, even in the context of the tacks cuts on the Hill.

You have a ton of members that are really trying to make sure, this is either deficit neutral.

Or you have -- this is a moment, that can be used for significant mandatory reform.

GLENN: So to get there. Are tax hikes on the rich part of that plan?

RUSSELL: Well, listen, the President put out a truce this morning. He said, look.

I think he said, a couple different minds. He has always been very focused on the things that he ran on.

This was not something that he ran on.

The -- the no tax on overtime.

GLENN: Right. Right.

No tax on tips. Yeah.

RUSSELL: No tax on tips. All that kind of thing.

That's really what we've been trying to fit in. To the amount that Congress is ready to reduce.

At the same time, we have to spend the tax cuts from his first term.

GLENN: I saw in the budget, we are increasing defense and border security.

Is that border.

Is that why this is happening?

RUSSELL: On the border. We want to increase -- and really, buy out all of our increases, over the next three to four years. In one bill.

And we're doing that. This is a paradigm shift. I'm really glad you asked.

We no longer want to be in a situation, where we have to get Democrat votes. Defense increases.

That then, they put us in a situation, where they have to lever up and demand -- not only on our habits. But that we have to increase non-defense spending.

Because we need their votes in the Senate.

Secondly, they flatout oppose any border spending. They put us on the precipice of a shutdown every single time, we want to increase spending for ICE or the wall.

And so our view is to -- to actually look to how they did it. And then the Joe Biden administration.

And put those increases, on the mandatory one big, beautiful reconciliation bill. And then put us in a situation where we have a united Republican Party.

So your defense hawks are not working against us in the appropriations process, to actually get non-defense cuts. That's what we're trying to do.

And then we have DOGE working over time. Pete Hegseth with reforms. Obviously, there's waste there as well.

And at least in this first year. To make sure, we would reinvest there. And let the new leaders there, get a sense of where the reforms need to be.

GLENN: So with all the DOGE stuff. A, this has nothing to do with DOGE, but I was glad to see Kash Patel come out yesterday and say, no, no, no. I will go with the budget.

On the FBI. Because he was saying, no. We can't live on that. We need more. And cut, cut, cut. And I was glad to see, that he kind of changed his position on that yesterday.

But, you know, with DOGE, I'm seeing that Congress is like, well, we're not going to take all of the DOGE recommendations.

Why?

JOHN: Yeah, I mean, that's the question Congress has asked. Number one, send all these rescission bills. Rescission bills. And I'm willing to send rescissions bills.

Our administration is. The Trump administration is. But, man, they have to pass.

And so if they don't pass. It passes our ability to use some of the tools that we would have executively. To spend less of that money.

And so we are working with them.

That's why I haven't formerly sent up the 9th round of rescissions from DOGE.

I am having great conversations, surprisingly with the appropriations committee. Historic in and of itself.

And they are trying to think through. Okay. What's the version that we could do this a little bit different?

But hit the same amount of savings?

That's a healthy back and forth. I think that in and of itself.

This is a little bit different, Glenn.

This is more like the early 1980s. When Reagan first came in, than anything we've seen recently.

Congress is saying, we -- instead of, we will ignore your budget. Saying, we will want to hit your number.

So it's early. I don't know if that will materialize. But I am optimistic about it.

GLENN: How -- how optimistic are you?

Because, you know, I've talked to the president about this. Just a couple of weeks ago.

And I said, we are playing such a dangerous game. Because we have to.

I mean, I think America -- I mean, no country has ever turned around from this point. And we have to.

And it just requires some really big boy pants, to do it.

But I'm -- I'm just so concerned about it.

And I'm -- you know, I'm hoping that we can get the reduction, and the staff.

I know that you're -- you know, you're doing a fantastic job on reducing the number of federal employees. Do you believe we'll be able to get these things, actually codified, so if things don't go well. Or even if they do go well.

But it's not President Trump, the next time. That this remains. This path remains this direction?

RUSSELL: I do. I think if you zoom out for a second, we will come away from this year, in particular. We have to know when to cut spending in like two or three decades.

You know, Paul Ryan kind of put us in this cul-de-sac forever. I think we will come away this year with probably the largest mandatory savings ever, or adjusted for inflation.

Since the 1997 balanced budget. That's going to happen.

I think we will see the appropriations process fixed for the first time, because of our talking about executive tools like rescissions and empowerment.

It's going to cause the appropriations process, a return to separation of powers. That Congress actually listened to our cuts.

GLENN: Wow.

RUSSELL: And we may not get all of them. But we will get some of them. And I think we will see something that is progress on that front.

Third, I think -- I remember coming on this show, in the first term.

And they're just like, the extent to which, the career bureaucracy is just impregnable. Is totally unacceptable. You pushed on this.

And I think, many of us. The president. Elon has spent a ton of time thinking about this.

And I think that will be -- one of the biggest stories, the extent to which, the things that have been done. You know, the fork in the road. Has fundamentally changed the reality on the ground.

And so we have a much smaller. We will have a much smaller bureaucracy, as a result of it.

Notwithstanding the laws that are on the books, that have been here thus far.

GLENN: I have to tell you, I stay away from Washington, DC, you know, as much as I try to stay away from the plague. But next time, I'm up, Russ, I would love to sit down with you, and do a long form interview with you.

You're really one of the good guys. Thank you for everything you're doing.

JOHN: You've got it. Thanks, Glenn.