GLENNApril 06, 2017

How Adam and Eve Became Victims of the Greatest Character Assassination Ever

Three thousand years before The Happiness Movement told us relationships matter, the Bible had already done it with Adam and Eve.

Bruce Feiler, author of the new book The First Love Story: Adam, Eve, and Us, joined Glenn in studio on Thursday, revealing how a visit to the Sistine Chapel with this daughters inspired him.

"They're complaining. My feet hurt. This boring. I'm like, get into the Sistine Chapel, girls. I'm going to blow your mind. They look up, and one of my girls looks at Adam and God --- the fingers, right? Across the sky --- and says, 'That's only men. Where am I in that picture?' And her identical sister looks up and sees . . . under God's arm is a woman," Feiler recalled.

The woman, of course, was Eve.

"That's when I realized . . . this story has been at the heart of every conversation about men, women and sexuality for 3,000 years. And as crazy as it sounds, maybe it has something to teach us," Feiler said.

Enjoy the complimentary clip or read the transcript for details.

GLENN: Hello, America. Welcome. And welcome to Bruce Feiler. How are you, Bruce?

BRUCE: It's great to with you, Glenn. Just happy to be here. And nice to see you looking so great. This wonderful room. So thank you for having me.

GLENN: Thank you.

We were -- the first time we met, you were riddled with cancer. Didn't know if you were going to make it. And you wrote one of the most honest books. It just -- just grabbed me by the heart and the throat. I don't remember the name of it.

BRUCE: The Council of Dads.

GLENN: Council of Dads. And you were putting together a council in case you died. Here are the -- I pick this guy because of these values. I pick this guy because of these values.

BRUCE: Yeah.

GLENN: It was a fascinating study.

First of all, how are you doing?

BRUCE: I'm well. Cancer-free. And -- you know, they say cured. I'm not sure I like that language. But healthy. Walking around.

GLENN: Good. And then you wrote America's Prophet. Which was another book that just riveted me because it really told our American story and put it into real context. Important context. Now you're a big star and you're on PBS. And you write all kinds of, you know, number one best-sellers. And this one is about Adam and Eve.

And I'm fascinated, especially since you're here in week, because I thought a lot about Adam and Eve. And my relationship with my wife. Just last week, I was pondering Adam and Eve for some reason and how much that story has to teach us. And then, you know, I start reading your book, and, you know, you've taken a little pondering. And taken it the full hundred yards.

Let's start with the Sistine Chapel.

BRUCE: So this journey in some ways begins in the Sistine Chapel. My process really begins at my kitchen table. I have a working wife. I have children. As you know, my kids are almost exactly the age of your children.

And we talk a lot about the changing ways that men and women are relating to each other. Right? This moment of sort of tectonic change. And most -- and I write a lot about this in my last two books, New York Times columns. And mostly it's about technology or the latest app. We're going to do it differently. I care a lot about the ancient world and the Bible. Spent a lot of time in the Middle East. And I can't help, but wondering, is there nothing from the past that's not worth preserving?

GLENN: Uh-huh.

BRUCE: We go to the Sistine Chapel, day one. It's a business trip for my wife. And I'm like, okay. I'm going to take my sleep-deprived daughters to the Vatican. It doesn't go well. They're complaining. My feet hurt. This boring.

I'm like, get into the Sistine Chapel, girls. I'm going to blow your mind. They look up, and one of my girls looks at Adam and God, the fingers, right? Across the sky. And says, "That's only men. Where am I in that picture?" And her identical sister looks up and sees -- by the way, my mother is an art teacher. I never noticed this. Under God's arm is a woman.

She says, "Is that Eve?" And that's when I realized -- I had one of those moments that you know -- you've gone on these journeys writing these things out of nowhere. This story has been at the heart of every conversation about men, women, and sexuality for 3,000 years. And as crazy as it sounds, maybe it has something to teach us.

And you mention Walking the Bible earlier in the lead-up to this in the last hour. So I'm an experientialist. I like to go to places. I climb Mount Ararat and cross the Red Sea. But where am I going to go. Right? I mean, you can go to the Garden of Eden in Iraq.

But what happens is I start tugging on strings, Glenn. And this whole opportunity -- every generation we've looked at this story, right? So Michelangelo and John Milton and Ernest Hemingway and Mark Twain and Beyonce and Bob Dylan and Pope Francis -- so I get to go on like this incredible scavenger hunt, all over the world, trying to look at how people have explored this story and try to figure out what lessons it can hold --

GLENN: So let's -- I'm going to have you on for an hour tonight on television. And I invite you to watch. It will be a fascinating -- trust me, Bruce is a fascinating guy. And I want to talk about your journeys and the different things that you found as you went on these journeys and the way that everybody looks at it.

But help me out with, why does it matter? What can it teach us today? Because right now, I think we are living the Kipling poem. And if you don't know it, look it up. The gods of the copybook headings. We are living those times right now, where everything that is known to be true is just thrown out.

BRUCE: Right. Right.

GLENN: And we're just making it up and saying, "This is true." We have no idea if that's true.

So we throw things out like Adam and Eve.

BRUCE: Yeah. So I think -- look, there's -- I was interviewed in TIME magazine this week on the last page. Eight questions with Bruce Feiler, and one of the questions they asked me was coding class or Bible study? Okay? And what I said was, you know, for my daughters, they like math. And they believe like all kids, that every bit of knowledge is behind that screen. If they look long enough into that computer, they're going to know everything. I was like, you know what, it's rare, and it's kind of counterculture and it's almost outrageous today to say, you can learn something from the past.

So I said Bible study. You know, to me, in some ways, this book is about -- the first love story -- is about, let's remember that there's wisdom in the past.

You mentioned this in the lead-up to this conversation, Glenn. Positive psychology. The happiness movement. What has it said to us? Relationships matter, okay?

You and I have been connected. We don't see each other all the time. We are connected. We have that connection. Happiness is other people.

The big threat is loneliness. Young people, middle-aged people, the opioid crisis, suicide crisis -- what's the first thing God says about human beings in the Bible? Upon looking at Adam, it's not right for humans to be alone.

The Bible gets there 3,000 years before social science. And if you're one of those people who thinks, science, who needs the Bible? Here's a beautiful example where that's not true.

And, by the way, if you're the kind of person that says the Bible has everything, not science. Also, not true. You put the two in dialogue with each other.

So I actually think that the story itself is a beautiful story about resilience, forgiveness, togetherness. They make missteps. They have problems. You can call it sin, if you want to. But they stay together, right? They start together. They leave Eden. They stay together. They have two children. One of them murders the other. They reconcile. They come back together. Right? We know. What's the key to a relationship?

You've been married a long time, as I have. Going on 15 years, in my case. Being able to mend a rupture, right? Heal a broken heart. Get over our mistakes. Admit mistakes. That's key.

Boy, do Adam and Eve do that, and, boy, their mistakes were a lot bigger than ours are. Okay?

Also, there's a kind of balance between independence and interdependence. Like, you need to be together, but you also need to be yourself. Right? I think of this Kahlil Gibran quote that you may know, right? Love is the antidote to loneliness, as long as there's aloneness within it. Right? We have to be ourselves, but be connected. And then to me, the number one thing that I've learned -- and as I've been out there in the country and talking about this book and people responding to it, is that love is a story we tell with another person.

It's co-creation through narration. The storyteller in you can really relate to this. You and I are in a relationship. We have to tell a story together. We hit a bump in the road or we have a downturn, we have to write a new chapter in our story together. And that's what I think is powerful about the Adam and Eve story. Is that, think of all the other figures in the Bible, by the way -- Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, what do they have in common? They're all singles.

Adam and Eve, they're a couple, right? Not Adam. Not Eve. Adam and Eve. They're reminding us that that connection is at the start of the human line. It's very powerful. And this especially matters to women and to the men who along with women are rewriting the story. Because this story was weaponized against women for centuries.

GLENN: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Because I think that's an important thing to get to, is at least in my faith, we don't look at Eve as, you know, the evil one.

BRUCE: Right.

GLENN: Or the weak one. So -- but a lot of people do. And they're still carrying around original sin.

I mean, it had to be.

BRUCE: Right.

GLENN: How did you -- what did you find on the weaponization of Eve?

BRUCE: Yeah, so when you go back to the original story that created in Genesis 1, both in God's image. What's true for the man is true for the woman. And, you know, there's this kind of seesawing of power, but what happened was organized religion got a hold of the story. They used it. They essentially weaponized it. I think that Adam and Eve were victims of the greatest character assassination the world has ever known. And then -- but what's happened is. I mean, we now live in a world where women are kind of dominating religion. They're propping it up. They care more. They're involved more. They take the responsibility for passing on values, and they weren't going to do it if this story was going to put them down.

I mean, I don't know if you know this story. As you know, it's in the back of my book. Maybe you knew it before. I didn't.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton, at the birth of women's movement in the 1840s, she's out there with Susan B. Anthony, fighting for property rights and voting rights for women. And they kept hitting a stumble. Why? Because someone would say, the Bible says, you know, Eve was created second. Or the Bible says, you can't vote because Eve was created from Adam's rib.

And she realizes her biggest problem is not politicians -- it's preachers. So if women are going to have equality in this country, she's got to rewrite the Bible. And she does. In 1895, she writes a book called The Woman's Bible. It goes back to the Adam and Eve story, back to Genesis 1. And says, look, our Creator has us formed at the same time. Don't tell me women are not equal. The book is a landmark. It's a best-seller. It's a disaster.

Okay? The organization that she started with Susan B. Anthony gets together and they kick her out, okay?

So the reason that we all know Susan B. Anthony and she's on our coinage is because Elizabeth Cady Stanton, the most famous woman in America at the time, takes on the most famous couple in the world and gets flattened. Absolutely destroyed. It was not for a century until this story was told again because that's how powerful this -- I think of it as the negative branding of Adam and Eve. You have 3,000 years of negative branding.

GLENN: Yeah, yeah.

BRUCE: But the reason this matters is because today, can anybody deny that men and women stand equally before God?

GLENN: No.

BRUCE: No. It was a 30-century battle to reclaim this story. And why does it matter? Because that's what we want to tell our daughters, that you can stand before God, that you deserve to have a loving relationship, that you can overcome it. We owe this to Adam --

STU: It does make me a little nervous about rewriting the Bible though. Doesn't it sound like that --

GLENN: No.

BRUCE: I'm not saying rewriting the Bible. I'm saying reread the story. Go back to the Bible. Go behind.

STU: Right.

BRUCE: Go behind the layers of tradition. This is what -- I mean, the great -- look --

GLENN: Here. Explain this. Because this will really help. By the way, we're talking about the new book The First Love Story: Adam, Eve, and Us. Bruce Feiler is the author.

Explain this. Because is -- just little things like this that you point out in your book, I think are so important. How was Eve made? From a rib, right?

BRUCE: Not correct.

GLENN: No. Not correct. Go ahead.

BRUCE: It's a tsela. Okay? So the Bible, it says, she's created from the tsela. By the way, the ultimate Hollywood meet cute. Okay? So what you have is Adam -- you have the animals are there and Adam. So Adam -- God creates the animals before. And you have this like swipe left, swipe left, swipe left. He doesn't want a hippopotamus. And he looks up. And God says, you know what, it's not right for you to be alone. I'm going to create one of you. So he falls asleep. And he wakes up, and there's a girl, by the way, and he's happy. This is the one. Right? Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, he's like ready to go.

(chuckling)

And, by the way, very positive. The two of them are naked and know no shame. Sex positive. They're having a good time. It's almost like the honeymoon moment.

But what is she created from? It's not the rib. It's the tsela in Hebrew. Thirty-eight times that word is used in the Hebrew Bible. It means side or side rib. So they stand side by side.

Why do they pick the rib? Because they said a rib is small and insignificant and given to putrefaction. I'm talking church fathers. I'm talking the rabbis. Because women are small and insignificant and given to putrefaction. I mean, even if you put dirt by a side of Adam, Adam is created by the dirt. Right? Put dirt by the side of the road. It doesn't smell. Put a rib, it starts to stink. That's why women have to wear perfume. I mean, you cannot believe what is there.

STU: Wow.

BRUCE: Even if you know there was patriarchy, you just cannot believe. But when you look at the story, Adam is into her. Even when they're kicked out of Eden, God blesses them. Protects them.

GLENN: Yeah.

BRUCE: Remember, what's the first commandment God says? Be fruitful and multiply.

He needs them to succeed, and they do succeed. It is a success story. Even with the misstep, even with this, we can't let that overshadow that this has got to get the Biblical story.

But to your point, Stu, this is why I want to say -- you know, who has done more to popularize American history than you, Glenn? I'm serious. I know how you responded to America's prophet. We just heard a session on Calvin Coolidge before we came on here. The reason we can have this conversation about religion today in this country is because of the rewriting of religion. Because we are -- our forefathers, our Founding Fathers said there's going to be a expression of church and state. What did that mean?

That means there was not going to be a state-sponsored religion. So all the places where there's state-sponsored religion in the world, except where there are dictators like Iran, but all -- and like in Europe, those religions have all died. Our religion is still here. Why? Because it adapted. Because it was able to meet people where they were and change and say, religion was going to be relevant to their lives.

GLENN: And become enlightened. I mean, so many of these stories were written this way or spun this way for control. And you --

STU: Because you're talking more about religion than -- because I -- there's a separation maybe between religion as it stands, as an organization, people what they've done with these -- with this original truth.

GLENN: Yes.

STU: And the original truth.

BRUCE: Exactly.

GLENN: You study the Torah, which I would love to actually really study like Jewish people do.

Christians are so far behind the eight ball. They have no concept of what the Old Testament really says. You read it outside of its original language, you lose 80 percent of it. You really do. Do you think I'm exaggerating, Bruce?

BRUCE: Well, I think -- look, when you actually go back and read it -- I mean, first of all, where are people today? Religion is very fluid in this country. Half of Americans change faith in the course of their lives, right? Four in ten Americans are in an interfaith marriage.

We live in a time of fluidity, where you kind of make your own faith. It's harder, but ultimately, it can be more fulfilling. You mentioned the Sistine Chapel at the outset of this conversation. What's the center of the Sistine Chapel?

Not God and Adam, okay? That's the fourth panel. The fifth panel, the one in the center, it's not the creation of Adam. It's the creation of Eve. You have Adam lying to the left, God to the right, and Eve occupies the center of the Sistine Chapel. So Michelangelo did more than anybody to elevate Eve and to kind of fight back against this tradition of downplaying Eve.

And when you go back and you look at the story, you see that they're basically over the 30 centuries this story has been told, it was used to downplay women and elevate women. And now men and women, we're all struggling with it, this story is the road map --

GLENN: I cannot wait to have a long conversation with you today. 5 o'clock on TheBlaze TV. Bruce Feiler. The name of the book is The First Love Story: Adam, Eve, and Us.

Really, really worth it. And join us for this conversation because you're always fascinating. And I've got something that I don't know if you know, but you'll be very excited about to -- to learn if you don't. But if you do, we're going to have even a greater conversation.

Bruce Feiler, thanks for being with us. Now, here's our sponsor this half-hour. Delta Defense. The United States Concealed Carry Association is doing something right now. They want to buy ten people the gun of their dreams.

EXPOSED: Tim Walz's shocking ties to radical Muslim cleric

Minnesota Governor Tim Walz is directly connected in more ways than one to a radical Muslim cleric named Asad Zaman. Zaman's history and ties are despicable, and despite Walz's efforts to dismiss his connection to Zaman, the proof is undeniable. Glenn Beck heads to the chalkboard to connect the dots on this relationship.

Watch the FULL Episode HERE: Glenn Beck Exposes TERRORIST SYMPATHIZERS Infiltrating the Democrat Party

RADIO

Is there a sinister GOP plan to SELL national parks?

Is Sen. Mike Lee pushing a sinister plan to sell our national parks and build “affordable housing” on them? Glenn Beck fact checks this claim and explains why Sen. Lee’s plan to sell 3 million acres of federal land is actually pro-freedom.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Now, let me give you a couple of things, from people I generally respect.

Chris Rufo, I really respect.

I'm totally against selling this land.

Nobody is going to build affordable housing deep in the Olympic Peninsula, which is one of the most beautiful places in the country.

I agree, it's in Washington State. It's on the coast. And it's a rain forest.

I want my kids hiking, fishing, and camping on those lands, not selling them off for some tax credit scam. This is a question I want to ask Mike Lee about.

That's really good. Matt Walsh chimes in, I'm very opposed to the plan. The biggest environmentalist in the country are and always have been, conservatives who like to hunt and fish.

We don't just call ourselves environmentalists, because the label has too much baggage.

And the practice always just means communist. Really, we are naturalists in the tradition of Teddy Roosevelt, and that's why most of us hate the idea of selling off federal lands to build affordable housing or whatever. I want to get to affordable housing here in a second.

Preserving nature is important. It's a shame we haven't -- that we've allowed conservation to become so left-wing coated. It never was historically.

No, and it still isn't.

You're right about one thing, Matt. We are the best conservatives. We actually live in these places. We use these places. We respect the animals. We respect the land. We know how the circle of life works. So I agree with you on that.

But affordable housing. Why do you say affordable housing or whatever?

Are you afraid those will be black people? I'm just playing devil's advocate? Are you just afraid of black people? You don't want any poor people in your neighborhood or your forest?

That's not what they mean by affordable housing.

And I know that's not what you mean either.

But what -- what we mean by affordable housing is, if you take a look at the percentage of land that is owned in some of these states. You can't live in a house, in some of these states, you know. Close to anything, for, you know, less than a million dollars. Because there's no land!

There's plenty of land all around.

Some of it. Let's just talk about Utah.

Some of it is like the surface of the moon!

But no. No. No.

Not going to hunt and fish on the surface of the moon. But we can't have you live anywhere.

I mean, you have to open up -- there is a balance between people and the planet. And I'm sorry. But when you're talked about one half of 1 percent, and we're not talking about Yellowstone.

You know, we're not. Benji Backer, the Daily Caller, he says, the United States is attempting to sell off three million acres of public land, that will be used for housing development through the addition of the spending bill.

This is a small provision to the big, beautiful bill that would put land in Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado. Idaho. New Mexico. Oregon. Utah. Washington, and Wyoming at risk.

Without so much as a full and fair debate by members of both sides of the political aisle.

You know, I talked -- I'll talk to him about this.

The irony is, the edition of this provision by Republican-led Senate goes entirely against conservation legacy of a conservation. President Trump made a promise to revive this legacy.

Yada. Yada. Yada.

More about Teddy Roosevelt.

Then let me give you this one from Lomez. Is Mike Lee part of a sinister plan to sell off federal land?

This plan to sell off public lands is a terrible proposal that doesn't make any sense under our present circumstances and would be a colossal political blunder. But I'll try to be fair to base Mike Lee.

And at least have him explain where this is all coming from.

Okay. I will have him do that in about 30 minutes.

Let me give you just my perspective on this.

I'm from the West. I love the west.

I don't hike myself.

I think there's about 80 percent of the people who say, I just love to hike. And they don't love to hike. They never go outside.

I'm at least willing to admit. I don't like to hike. But I love the land. I live in a canyon now. That I would love to just preserve this whole canyon in my lifetime. I'm not going to rule from the grave. But in my lifetime, to protect this, so it remains unspoiled. Because it is beautiful!

But we're talking about selling 3 million acres of federal land. And it's becoming dangerous.

And it's a giveaway. Or a threat to nature.

But can we just look at the perspective here?

The federal government owned 640 million acres. That is nearly 28 percent of all land in America!

How much land do we have?

Well, that's about the size of France.

And Germany. Poland.

And the United Kingdom, combined!

They own and hold pristine land, that is more than the size of those countries combined!

And most of that is west of the Mississippi. Where the federal control smothers the states.

Okay?

Shuts down opportunity. Turns local citizens into tenets of the federal estate.

You can't afford any house because you don't have any land!

And, you know, the states can't afford to take care of this land. You know why the states can't afford it?

Because you can't charge taxes on 70 percent of your land!

Anyway, on, meanwhile, the folks east of the Mississippi, like Kentucky, Georgia. Pennsylvania.

You don't even realize, you know, how little of the land, you actually control.

Or how easy it is for the same policies, to come for you.

And those policies are real.

Look, I'm not talking about -- I'm disturbed by Chris Rufo saying, that it is the Olympic forest.

I mean, you're not going to live in the rain forest. I would like to hear the case on that.

But we're not talking about selling Yellowstone or paving over Yosemite or anything like that.

We're talking about less than one half of one percent of federal land. Land that is remote.
Hard to access. Or mismanaged. I live in the middle of a national forest.

So I'm surrounded on all sides by a national forest, and then BLM land around that. And then me. You know who the worst neighbor I have is?

The federal government.

The BLM land is so badly mismanaged. They don't care what's happening.

Yeah. I'm going to call my neighbor, in Washington, DC, to have them fix something.

It's not going to happen.

If something is wrong with that land, me and my neighbors, we end up, you know, fixing the land.

We end up doing it. Because the federal government sucks at it.

Okay.

So here's one -- less than one half of 1 percent.

Why is it hard to access that land?

Well, let me give you a story. Yellowstone.

Do you know that the American bison, we call it the buffalo.

But it's the American bison.

There are no true American bison, in any place, other than Yellowstone.

Did you know that?

Here's almost an endangered species.

It's the only true American bison, is in Yellowstone.

Ranchers, I would love to raise real American bison.

And I would protect them.

I would love to have them roaming on my land.

But you can't!

You can't.

Real bison, you can't.

Why? Because the federal government won't allow any of them to be bred.

In fact, when Yellowstone has too many bison on their land, you know what the federal government does?

Kills them. And buries them with a bulldozer. Instead of saying, hey. We have too many.

We will thin the herd.

We will put them on a truck. Here's some ranchers that will help repopulate the United States with bison. No, no, no. You can't do that.

Why? It's the federal government. Stop asking questions. Do you know what they've done to our bald eagles.

I have pictures of piles of bald eagles.

That they'll never show you.

They'll never show you.

You can't have a bald eagle feather!

It's against the law, to have a feather, from a bald eagle!

If it's flying, and a feather falls off, you can't pick it up. Because they're that sacred.

But I have pictures of piles of bald eagles, dead, from the windmills.

And nobody says a thing.

Okay.

But we're talking about lands.

States can't afford to manage it.

Okay. But how can the federal government?

Now, this is really important.

The federal government is, what? $30 trillion in debt or are we 45 trillion now, I'm not sure?

Our entitlement programs, all straight infrastructure, crumbling.

And yet, we're still clinging to millions of acres of land, that the federal government can't maintain. Yeah, they can.

Because they can always print money.

We can't print money in the state, so we can't afford it.

Hear me out. The BLM Forest Service, Park Service, billions of dollars behind in maintenance, roads, trails, fire brakes.

Everything is falling apart..

So what's the real plan here?

Well, the Biden administration was the first one that was really open about it, pushing for what was called 30 by 30.

They want 30 percent of all US land and water, under conservation by 2030.

But the real goal is 5050.

50 percent of the land, and the water, in the government's control by 2050.

Half of the country locked up under federal or elite approved protection.

Now, you think that's not going to affect your ability to hunt, fish, graze, cattle. Harvest, timber, just live free. You won't be able to go on those. It won't be conservatives, who stop you from hunting and fishing.

It will be the same radical environmental ideologues, who see the land, as sacred, over people!

I mean, unless it's in your backyard. Your truck. Or your dear stand, you know, then I guess you can't touch that land.

Here's something that no one is talking about, and it goes to the 2030.

The Treasury right now, and they started under Obama, and they're still doing it now.

Sorry, under Biden.

And they're doing it now. The Treasury is talking about putting federal land on the national ballot sheet. What does that mean?

Well, it will make our balance sheet so much better.

Because it looks like we have so much more wealth, and we will be able to print more money.

Uh-huh. What happens, you know. You put something sacred like that, on your balance sheet, and the piggy bank runs dry.

And all of the banks are like, okay.

Well, you can't pay anymore.

What happens in a default?

What happens, if there's catastrophic failure. You don't get to go fish on that land. Because that land becomes Chinese.

You think our creditors, foreign and domestic, won't come knocking?

What happens when federal land is no longer a national treasure, but a financial asset, that can be seized or sold or controlled by giant banks or foreign countries.

That land that you thought, you would always have access to, for your kids, for your hunting lodge, for your way of life.

That is really important!

But it might not be yours at all. Because you had full faith in the credit of the United States of America.

So what is the alternative?

RADIO

Dershowitz SLAMS ‘expert’ lies in explosive trans surgery debate

The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 in favor a Tennessee law that bans transgender surgeries for minors. But famed attorney Alan Dershowitz explains to Glenn why “it should have been unanimous.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Alan Dershowitz, how are you?

ALAN: I'm doing great, how about you?

GLENN: It has been a really confusing week. I'm losing friends, I think, because I stand with Israel's right to defend themselves. And I'm pointing out, that while I don't want a war, Iran is a really bad place.

And then I see, the Supreme Court comes out best interest there are three justices are like, I don't know. I think children, you know, can change their identity before we even let them drive or carry a gun. Or enlist in the military.

It's insane!

ALAN: It is insane. Especially since the radical left said that -- 17 and a half-year-old -- voluntary sex with their boyfriend. That would be sexist, that would be horrible.

But they can consent to have an abortion. They can consent to have radical surgery, that can't be reversed.

By the way, the decision is like six to two and a half. Elena Kagan, my former colleague at Harvard, didn't reach the merits of whether or not a state could actually ban these operations on a minor. She got involved in whether or not you need super, duper scrutiny, or just super scrutiny, a kind of, you know, a very technical thing.

But she didn't rule on whether under any kind of scrutiny, the state could do that. So definitely, two of them said that the state could do it, but not necessarily a third one.

GLENN: Okay.

Can you break this argument down? And why it should have been unanimous?

ALAN: Oh, it should be unanimous. There's no question.

States under the Constitution, have the authority to decide medical issues. States decide a whole range of medical issues. I remember when I was a young professor, there was an issue of whether or not one twin could be operated on to remove a kidney, to be given to another twin.

And, you know, that case went all the way through -- the federal government never got involved in that. That was up to the state of Massachusetts. They made interesting decisions.

Some states go the other way.

Half the countries of Europe go one way. The other half go the other way. And just as Justice Brandeis once said that things are the laboratories of Constitutional experimentation.

They have the right to do things their own way. And then we'll see over time. Over time, I predict that we will find that this kind of surgery, is not acceptable scientifically for young people.

And the New York Times had an absurd op-ed yesterday. By the mother of a transgender person.

And it never mentioned. It originally said that the person was now 18 years old.

And the decision does not apply to anyone who is 18.

You know, just wait. Don't make irreversible decisions while you're 12 years old. Or 13 years old.

Because we know the statistics show, that some people, at least, regret having made these irreversible decisions, particularly. Yeah.

GLENN: So why is it -- why is it that the state. Why wasn't the argument, you can't do this to children?

ALAN: Well, you know, that's the question.

Whether or not if the state says, you can do it to children, that violates the Constitution. I think states are given an enormous amount of leeway, this. Deciding what's best for people.

You leave it to the public.

And, you know, for me, if I were, you know, voting. I would not vote to allow a 17-year-old to make that irreversible decision. But if the state wants to do it. If a country in Europe wants to do it. All right!

But the idea that there's a constitutional right for a minor, who can't -- isn't old enough to consent to a contract, to have sex, is old enough to consent to do something that will change their life forever, and they will come to regret, is -- is absurd.

GLENN: So I don't know how you feel about Justice Thomas. But he -- he took on the so-called experts.

And -- and really kind of took him to the woodshed. What were your thoughts on that?

ALAN: Well, I agree with that. I devoted my whole life to challenging experts. That's what I do in court.

I challenge experts all the time. But most of the major cases that I've won, have been cases where experts went one way, and we were -- persuaded a jury or judge. That the expert is not really an expert.

Experts have become partisans, just like everybody else.

And so I'm glad that expert piece is being challenged by judges.

And, you know, experts ought to challenge judges, judges challenge experts. That's the world we live in. Everybody challenges everybody else. As long as all of us are allowed to speak, allowed to have our point of view expressed, allowed to vote, that's democracy.

Democracy does not require a singular answer to complex medical, psychological, moral problems. We can have multiple answers.

We're not a dictatorship. We're not in North Korea or Iran, where the ayatollah or the leader tells us what to think. We can think for ourselves, and we can act for ourselves.

GLENN: Yeah. It's really interesting because this is my argument with Obamacare.

I was dead set against Obamacare. But I wasn't against Romneycare when it was in Massachusetts. If that's what Massachusetts wants to do, Massachusetts can do it. Try it.

And honestly, if it would work in a state, we would all adopt it.

But the problem is, that some of these things, like Romneycare, doesn't work. And so they want to -- they want to rope the federal government into it. Because the federal government can just print money. You know, any state wants to do anything.

For instance, I have a real hard time with California right now.

Because I have a feeling, when they fail, we will be roped into paying for the things that we all knew were bad ideas.

Why? Why should I pay for it in Texas, when I know it wouldn't work?

And I've always wanted to live in California, but I don't, because I know that's not going to work.

ALAN: Yeah. But conservatives sometimes take the opposite point of view.

Take guns, for example.

The same Justice Thomas says that I state cannot have the authority to decide that guns should not be available in time square.

Or in schools. There has to be a national openness to guns. Because of the second apple.

And -- you can argue reasonably, what the Second Amendment means.

But, you know, conservatives -- many conservatives take the view that it has to be a single standard for the United States.

It can't vary in their decision how to control -- I'm your favorite --

GLENN: Isn't that -- doesn't that -- doesn't that just take what the -- what the Bill of Rights is about, and turns it upside the head?

I mean, it says, anything not mentioned here, the states have the rights.

But they -- they cannot. The federal government cannot get involved in any of these things.

And these are rights that are enshrined.

So, I mean, because you could say that, but, I mean, when it comes to health care, that's not in the Constitution. Not in the Bill of Rights.

ALAN: Oh, no.

There's a big difference, of course.

The Second Amendment does provide for the right to bear arms.

The question is whether it's interpreted in light of the beginning of the Second Amendment. Which says, essentially, a well-regulated, well-regulated militia. Whether that applies to private ownership as well.

Whether it could be well-regulated by states.

Look, these are interesting debates.

And the Supreme Court, you know, decides these.

But all I'm saying is that many of these decisions are in some way, influenced by ideology.

The words of the Constitution, don't speak like, you know, the Ten Commandments and God, giving orders from on high.

They're often written in ambiguous terms. Even the Ten Commandments. You know, it says, thou shall not murder. And it's been interpreted by some to say, thou shall not still, the Hebrew word is (foreign language), for murder, not kill. And, of course, we know that in parts of the Bible, you are allowed to kill your enemies, if they come after you to kill you, rise up and kill them first.

So, you know, everything -- human beings are incapable of writing with absolute clarity, about complex issues.

That's why we need institutions to interpret them. The institutions should be fair.

And the Supreme Court is sometimes taking over too much authority, too much power.

I have an article today, with gay stone.

Can had starts with a quote from the book of Ruth.

And it says, when judges rule the land, there was famine.

And I say, judges were not supposed to ever rule, going back to Biblical times.

Judges are supposed to judge.

People who are elected or pointed appropriately. Are the ones supposed to rule.

GLENN: Quickly. Two other topics. And I know you have to go.

If I can get a couple of quick takes on you.

The Democrats that are being handcuffed, and throwing themselves into situations.

Do you find that to be a sign of a fascistic state or a publicity stunt?

ALAN: A publicity stunt. And they would knit it. You know, give them a drink at 11 o'clock in the bar. They will tell you, they are doing this deliberately to get attention.

Of course, a guy who is running behind in the mayor race in New York, goes and gets himself arrested. And now he's on every New York television station. And probably will move himself up in the polls.

So no.

Insular -- I don't believe in that. And I don't believe we should take it -- take it seriously.

GLENN: Last question.

I am proudly for Israel.

But I'm also for America. And I'm really tired of foreign wars.

And I think you can be pro-Israel and pro-America at the same time.

I don't think you can -- you don't have to say, I'm for Israel, defending themselves, and then that makes me a warmonger.

I am also very concerned about Iran. And have been for a very long time.

Because they're Twelvers. They're Shia Twelvers. That want to wash the world in blood. To hasten the return of the promised one.

So when they have a nuclear weapon. It's a whole different story.

ALAN: No, I agree with you, Tucker Carlson, is absolutely wrong, when he say he has to choose between America first or supporting Israel. Supporting Israel in this fight against Iran, is being America first.

It's supporting America. Israel has been doing all the hard work. It's been the one who lost its civilians and fortunately, none of its pilots yet.

But America and Israel work together in the interest of both countries.

So I'm -- I'm a big supporter of the United States, the patriarch. And I'm a big supporter of Israel at the same time.

Because they work together in tandem, to bring about Western -- Western values.

GLENN: Should we drop a bomb?

ALAN: Yes, we should.

GLENN: Our plane drop the bomb?

ALAN: Yes, we should. And without killing civilians. It can be done. Probably needs four bombs, not one bomb. First, one bomb to open up the mountain. Then another bomb to destroy what's going on inside.

And in my book The Preventive State, I make the case for when preventive war is acceptable. And the war against Iran is as acceptable as it would have been to attack Nazi Germany in the 1930s. If we had done that, if Britain and France had attacked Nazi Germany in the 1930s, instead of allowing it to be built up, it could have saved 60 million lives. And so sometimes, you have to take preventive actions to save lives.

GLENN: What is the preventive state out, Alan?

ALAN: Just now. Just now.

Very well on Amazon.

New York Times refuses to review it. Because I defended Donald Trump.

And Harvard club cancelled my appearance talked about the book. Because I haven't been defending Harvard. I've been defending President Trump's attack. By the way, they called Trump to Harvard: Go fund yourself.
(laughter)

GLENN: Okay.

Let's -- I would love to have you back on next week. To talk about the preventive state. If you will. Thank you, Alan. I appreciate it. Alan Dershowitz. Harvard Law school, professor emeritus, host of the Dershow. And the author of the new book that's out now, The Preventive State.

I think that's a really important topic. Because we are -- we are traveling down the roads, where fascism, on both sides, where fascism can start to creep in. And it's all for your own good.

It's all for your own protection. Be aware. Be aware.

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