GLENN: I want to bring in a woman who I really admire. And I'd admire her even if she were a man. I just think she is one of the bravest people that I have met, and forthright. And has just a good head on her shoulders and can think clearly.
Carly Fiorina who, of course, ran for president of the United States. And I hope she does again. Welcome to the program, Carly. Carly.
CARLY: So good to be with you, Glenn. It's good to be talking with you again, my friend. It's been too long.
GLENN: It has been too long.
So, Carly, I read your post in Medium, and I thought it was really, really good. And you talked about how you're tired of the media class opining on this. Politicians and Hollywood and everybody else.
You said a man who demeans, harasses, or abuses a woman has made a choice. It's a personal choice about how to behave. Another man who suspects, who knows, and fears and looks away is also making a choice. It's now time for a man to choose.
Are you going to laugh and look the other way? Are you going to josh that boys will be boys, with a wink and a nod and a choice word here or there? Or will you make it clear that while you love women, you actually don't think that they're capable about whatever you care about most? Are you going to keep quiet when you should speak up?
You said that all men know. And I have to tell you -- and I might just be the most naive man in the world. And my wife says this to me all the time, I don't think most men are like this.
CARLY: Oh, they're not. And I also said that in the post: Most men, the vast majority of men are decent, respectful, and honorable. And many, many, many, many men have lifted women up and helped them. I have been helped by many men in the course of my life. Most men are good men.
But enough men aren't. And, you know, it's interesting. I was listening to your opening comments. And I agree with everything you said.
And the thing that we need to understand about harassment and abuse and disrespect and assault, groping, all these things, it's not an abuse of power.
GLENN: Yeah.
CARLY: And it's why -- it's why, by the way, you see occasions of women abusing their power. You know, we have too many instances of female teachers abusing their power with underage boys.
For example, most of this is about men because men hold most of the power in the world still. But fundamentally, it's about an abuse of power.
And if I have to say it, I have to agree with your wife. I mean, it's hard for me to believe that you've never witnessed this. But I'll take you at your word. But it goes on all --
GLENN: You know, I have to tell you this, I worked at a radio station once. Not that I recall, I have not witnessed this. I worked at a radio station that was run by a woman, and she had hired a -- a whole team of salespeople. And I have witnessed it the other way. I have witnessed that it was kind of a known thing that, you know, you use your beauty. You use your talents. Not in a -- you know, not in a go have sex with people sort of way. But you go use your women wiles and charm the pants off of people. Not literally.
And so I've seen it that way. I have not seen it the other way, at least institutionalized.
CARLY: Yeah. Well, look, let's be honest, it helps to be attractive, whether you're a man or a woman.
GLENN: Right.
CARLY: It helps to be charming, whether you're a man or a woman. I find it interesting that when it's a woman, it's about being wily. But when it's a man, it's just about being effective.
I'm not sure this is ever institutionalized. I do think it's covered up. And I think sometimes we -- we get so used to -- I mean, look, there is no question that whether it was Roger Ailes, Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, if you dig into these stories, what you'd find out is that everybody knew. They may not have known the particulars. But they knew the generalities. They knew the generalities.
GLENN: So here's a good example. Roger Ailes, it did not surprise me. I didn't know. But it didn't surprise me. Being around Roger Ailes enough, you were like, you know, I could see that.
CARLY: People suspected it. People understood what the culture was. And I'm not saying that -- the thing that I would say about these allegations is I take them seriously. And, frankly, I believe them. When you have multiple instances of people coming forward and telling the same story, when you have instances in which people shared what had happened to them contemporaneously, when you have other witnesses around saying, well, yeah, you know, now that it's out, I'm really not surprised.
Now, I happen to personally know Harvey Weinstein and knew Roger Ailes. And so neither one of those stories surprised me one little bit.
But I do think sometimes we get kind of used to this sort of joking, joshing stuff in a way that under-- it indicates something deeper. Let me give you an example, Glenn. Because you and I met when I was running for president, really.
GLENN: Yes.
CARLY: When I was on a presidential debate stage -- now, let's bear in mind that I think there have been four women that have run for president in the United States of America.
There aren't many men who have run for president, and I was on a presidential debate stage. And in the middle of that debate, I was telling the story of how I had come up as a secretary. In the middle of that debate, a radio show host who is very well-known and who shall remain nameless. Because my point here is to make an example. Tweeted out that I had just played the vagina card. Wow. Wow. Wow.
Male politicians pay their stories all the time. He got a little bit of pushback. And so he then went on to say, oh, I really like vaginas. Ask my wife. And the silence was deafening.
Now, here's a guy who think it's okay to reduce me -- I think most people agreed, I was pretty qualified and pretty articulate. Here's a guy who thinks it's okay to just reduce me to literally -- pardon my -- the directness of my language here. But this is the language he used. He thought it was just okay to reduce me to my genitalia.
And apparently, most everybody else did also.
And so that -- that creates an environment where it's okay to be disrespectful. Where it's okay to be disregarding.
And I think we need a mindset shift, as I tried to say in that column. Men and women, particularly men, because men still have more authority and power than women, to say, you know what, we need women to fulfill their potential. We need women to be full participants. Because we're all better off.
GLENN: You know, this is one of the things.
CARLY: Man or woman has that chance.
GLENN: This is one of the things that has been crossing my mind for a long time. And that is, we keep trying to say, it's my way or the highway. No matter what the difference is, women, men, Republicans, Democrats, conservative, liberal, we -- we need each other. We need each other.
CARLY: That's right.
GLENN: And we're not understanding that. We're not coming together and saying, you put your best stuff on the table, I'll put my best stuff on the table, and let's see what we can do together.
That's the way we should be, but we're not headed in that direction.
CARLY: Well, that's right. And I think unfortunately is a failure of leadership in many cases. You know, what is a leader? A leader is somebody who understands that collaboration is critical. A leader is somebody who understands that character counts. A leader is someone who sees possibilities, particularly in other people. A leader is somebody who believes that every life is filled with potential and that we're all better off when each of us have the opportunity to fulfill our potential.
And, you know, I do think that in this nation, serenity rests with the citizen. It's one of the unique qualities of our nation. Serenity rests with the citizen in this country. And so I think each of us, regardless of our position -- and position never defines leadership. An individual defines leadership. Regardless of our position, I think each of us as Americans, as citizens need to lead more. Need to step up and be leaders. And quit waiting for somebody else to do it for us, particularly our politicians. Quit waiting for people in positions of power and authority to lead for us, because too often, they don't.
GLENN: Let me -- let me --
CARLY: And in this regard, we can make a difference in our workplaces and in our lives.
GLENN: Let me take you one more place: I'm concerned that we are just -- everybody -- I mean, I used Garrison Keillor here a little while ago as an example of this.
If what Garrison Keillor said happened, this is craziness. He said that he just patted a woman on the back. They were friends, blah, blah, blah, she later felt uncomfortable. You know, that's not sexual harassment. If that happened the way he said it did. But we're just -- we're painting everyone with the same brush.
And at the same time we're doing that -- and I think in many cases, it's a good thing. At the same time, we're doing that. We are not holding the people in Washington, Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Franken, and who is the other one? John Conyers. They're -- they're not out immediately. NBC hears something about Matt Lauer, he's out. These guys, they're not out.
If they don't get out, if we -- if we have credible witnesses and they don't get out, aren't we just going to send a message that you can absolutely do anything probably up to and including killing someone and we don't care?
CARLY: Well, you said a couple things there. First of all, I agree with you that we can overreact and do stupid things. And then, of course, it diminishes the real problems that exist.
GLENN: Correct.
CARLY: So, for example, when the Obama administration overreacted to sexual assault on campus and basically said any woman that accuses a guy is going to be given the benefit of the doubt, even when the case doesn't hold water. I mean, that's -- had a terrible impact on young men's lives in some cases.
GLENN: Yes.
CARLY: So, yes, we can overreact. And, yes, we are in danger of being willing to live with a double standard.
Look, the politicians are so hypocritical here of both parties. They don't have a leg to stand on. If you look at the processes that Congress has put in place, Congress always grants itself an exception.
GLENN: Yes.
CARLY: Whether it's living with the health care rules they pass, or whether it's sexual assault, they always grant themselves an exception. They are hypocrites, in both parties. And part of what I believe we as citizens need to hold our politicians accountable for is, are you a person of character?
It's one of the reasons people are so sick of politics and politicians. It so rarely has anything to do with leadership or problem solving or collaboration or character.
GLENN: Carly Fiorina, always good to talk to you. Thank you so much.
CARLY: Great to talk with you. Thanks, Glenn. Have a great day.
GLENN: Buh-bye. Carly Fiorina. Businesswoman. Wife. Mom. Grandmother.
