"Being Christian is HARD, man," comedian Jamie Kilstein tells Glenn. When he left atheism to follow Christ, there were plenty of misconceptions he had to discover, starting with a common one: if you follow God's will, then everything will be easy! Jamie joins Glenn to discuss how he found the exact opposite to often be true. From getting married and losing all his money 2 days later to his "biggest struggle" (that involved an ill-fated game of duck-duck-goose), Jamie recounts his unexpected Christian journey. And his struggles with depression, victim mentality, and the thought that he was being punished didn't make it any easier. But he also tells Glenn why he isn't giving up ... after all, he didn't start following Jesus to make his life easier. He turned to Christianity for a much deeper reason. Plus, Jamie gives his take on Russell Brand's Christian conversion.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Hello, my friend. Jamie Kilstein. How are you?

JAMIE: Hi, buddy. That intro was very funny.

GLENN: Well, it's sad, kind of, isn't it? Because it's all true. You have had such an incredible life. And I'm telling you, Jamie. Your life will only get better. But you just -- it's hard at first.

JAMIE: It is. Yeah. It was easier, kind of not -- it was -- it was easier not being Christian. Being Christian is hard, man.

It's so hard. I was very happy. Just like blissfully torpedoing my life. And angrily tweeting that from Brooklyn back in the day.

This is difficult.

And then I go to my Christian friends for like help.

Like my famous pastor friend. And they'll always be like, yeah. Well, look at the apostles. They were in jail. They died. I'm like, cool. That's awful. I don't want that. I want a good -- was there any apostle that like did okay? It's not a good sell.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. I have the same thing. My pastor friends and everybody comes up to me and they'll say, you know, you've been speaking prophecy on what's coming.

And, you know, you find those people in the Bible.

I'm like, don't ever say that to me. Those people were all killed.

They all died!

JAMIE: Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. The main guy died.

GLENN: Yeah.
(laughter)
JAMIE: Like he came back. But he died. Yeah.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. I guess it would -- I guess it should be a little more obvious that Christianity is tough, when that's the story, the selling point.

What's been the -- what's been the biggest struggle?

JAMIE: I mean, it's been all over the place. When I -- I mean, first of all, the week after I got baptized I got the worst injury I've ever gotten.

I've done Jiu-Jitsu and MMA for 20 years. Trained with UFC fighters. Wasn't that. I was volunteering at church playing Duck Duck Goose. And like, had to show the oddly good-looking guy volunteers that I was in charge. And so my hip shattered, and so I was out for a year.

GLENN: Oh, you're kidding me.

JAMIE: Oh, yeah, dude.

And I don't think I told this story on a podcast.

But I literally -- the worship band played at the end of the volunteer rally, and I'm standing there, and they're playing some Hallelujah song. And there's like tears in my eyes. And people must have been like, our new brother in Christ, is being moved by the Holy Spirit. And I'm like, my hip is broken. I don't have health insurance. I don't know what I will do.

So I hobbled out of there.

And then before I met my --

GLENN: You didn't tell anybody? You didn't tell anybody there?

JAMIE: No. Because I literally felt like -- I think I'm a level-headed guy. I'm an intelligent guy.

But when you become a Christian at 42, and you were never religious.

I feel like, I'm going through a lot of the struggles that other kids went through when they were like -- like, I'm asking the same questions 13-year-olds are asking when they're raised religious.

Like I'm going up to my pastor. Am I not allowed to go on the internet?

And it's -- because I'm just new.

So I literally thought that I'm being punished. And I'm not welcomed here. Why else would I get injured at church?

I mean, I thought I did the right thing. I got married in March. And two days later, lost all of my money.

I wish it was through a housing scam. So I could promote your guy's sponsor. But all gone. And it's like, every time I thought that I was doing it God's way. Something really bad would happen.

And, you know, look, you shouldn't go to Christianity, and I know we're going to talk about this.

But you shouldn't go to Christianity, for a click.

You shouldn't go to get things.

You know, it's want like you become a Christian. And like, all right. Jesus. Work your magic.

Everything will be good.

But I think because I've struggled so much with depression. And with not feeling like I fit this.

Or always feeling like a screwup.

When it stuff happened, sort of post-Christianity. I just go, oh, it's me.

Like not even Jesus can help.

And I think that's probably where -- Christians who struggle with mental health problems. That's probably where it can get worse, right?

Like, you can look to Jesus to take your anxiety. Fear.

And ask yourself, why is this happening? How can this better me as a person? Et cetera.

But when it goes the other way, it's so dangerous. Where you're like, oh, not even God likes me.

You know what I mean?

STU: So I have a friend. I did a podcast with him and his wife. They're an amazing couple.

He suffers from depression. Debilitating, like nobody I've ever seen.

JAMIE: Yeah.

GLENN: And he just can't do anything. He can't function. He's gone through all of that. Why me? God.

He's one of the most devout guys. Somehow or thorough. He's worked it out in his head.

I just have to tell you, Jamie. My first four years, really tough.

When you change as much as you have changed, it's tough.

It's -- I mean, because you're still paying for the past.

And, you know, you're still breaking all of these habits that were so engrained in you. That's fine to do.

And it's hard.

JAMIE: And I feel them coming back. Even the sort of victim mentality sort of stuff I used to do, on the left on Twitter.

I am now doing that with Jesus. Right?

I'm like, why me? And I hear myself saying it.

And I'm like, this isn't me. But that becomes an addiction. It becomes an addiction.

GLENN: Yeah, it does.

JAMIE: Depression can be an addiction, where you're just used to people going, how are you? Bad. Here's who screwed me over.

Here's why I'm in trouble. And then you get this little dopamine rush, because that's just the path you are used to.

And so people will say, well, give Jesus your -- your fears. Or your anxiety. And he can handle it.

You go, he's busy.

You start to have imposter syndrome.

With Jesus.

He doesn't want to hear this.

Like, my friends don't want to hear this at him.

Jesus doesn't need. Look what's happening in the Middle East.

He doesn't need. And I could use a paycheck.

GLENN: I have to tell you, Jamie, one of the big things I had with Roger Ailes, when I was at Fox, was, he said, you have to stop telling people to pray.

And I said, okay.

Stop talking about God. Stop telling people to pray

JAMIE: Whoa.

GLENN: And he said, God is busy on wars and things.

He doesn't need to hear everybody else's problems.

JAMIE: Wow.

GLENN: You know, I think that's not exactly the message of Christ. So I'm going to disregard that.

JAMIE: Yeah, man. How did you feel when you -- I'll have to have you on my podcast. The times when you -- when things have gone wrong for me in the past. A lot of that could be traced to mistakes that I was making. Right?

And not that I don't make mistakes every day. But when you started to course correct. And when you went on this path. And then you were getting hit with stuff.

Whether it was from your past or whatever.

That I find, is the hardest. Because when you're screwing up, and bad things happen. You're like, yeah. This tracks. This is my fault.

But when you are like, man, I am really crushing it. I'm volunteering. I'm the best husband I've been.

I'm the best all these things. Even the content I'm making. You know, it's still comedy. It's still philosophically. It's about Jesus, or whatever.

And I go, I'm doing it. And I'm being rewarded, and then when you get the rug pulled out of you, that's what's triggered my spirals recently.

GLENN: So, yeah. I have to tell you, this will come in time.

You begin to trust in him, so much, that you -- you -- you begin to focus on, wow. That wasn't helpful.

Jamie, right before we met, I was almost bankrupt. I had lost almost everything.

JAMIE: Whoa. I didn't know that.

GLENN: Because I had put all of my money into this. And it didn't look like it was going to work.

JAMIE: Right.

GLENN: And I knew that the Lord told me, to go out on our own.

Start this network, et cetera, et cetera.

And what I realized, two things. One, you know, if it was an error in it. It was my judgment error on being -- you know, doing it the right way.

Doing it his way.

The second thing is, my wife said to me. You know, he never promised, that this would go well or be easy. But -- but it will always lead us directly to where he wants us to be.

So even if you lose everything, gain you gain over a period of time.

I know that at our worst times. I know that everything will work out.

I had one of my kids, you know, was -- hang on just a second. Breaking news?

STU: Yeah. Sorry to interrupt, guys. We have a verdict in the Hunter Biden case. Just came out. Convicted on all counts. Faces 25 years in prison. All counts, convicted. Twenty-five years in prison, just came out just seconds ago.

So it's an interesting world we live in.

GLENN: There is a God.

JAMIE: I was going to say. Hunter is coming to Jesus! It is happening!

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. He might find him now. He might find him now.

STU: Wow.

GLENN: Anyway, so, Jamie, I want to talk to you. Let me take a quick break. And I wanted to talk to you about people.

We just had Alex Jones on yesterday. And he said, you know, I'm a changed man.

JAMIE: Whoa.

GLENN: And Russell Brand, I'm a changed man. Me, I'm a changed man. You, I'm a changed man.

I've never expected people to believe me right away.

Because I had lied for so long, with my alcoholism.

I knew it was going to be a long time. But it does get frustrating, when you're like, no. I'm not that guy anymore!

Do you have any just on like Russell Brand's conversion.

And what you rook for in a person, because I'm told all the time.

I'm too easy on people, that say they've changed.

And I don't think so.

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(music)
The host of the antipolitical political show. And the co-host of trauma bonding with Alex and Jamie. Jamie Kilstein.

So, Jamie, what are your just on that?

JAMIE: Yeah. So thank you for plugging the news shows, by the way.

GLENN: Sure.

JAMIE: I think that -- I think the word grifter can be really, really insidious.

I think it can be used against people, who have legitimately changed their minds on an issue. Oftentimes, for the best. Right?

So there are people who are laughing at Russell Brand. He's a drug addict, and then this. Yeah. Isn't that good? What kind of monster are you, that you would rather a celebrity kill himself with drugs than do something that is making himself a good person, whether you have clearly, you're projecting your church hurt.

And I'm sorry that happened. But like, we should be rooting for people to become better people. We should be rooting for people to become more nuanced.

The problem is, you know, I remember when I was an atheist. Sometimes you would see some politician, or something, and then, cheat on their wife. And do all these like scummy things. And then a week after the scandal, suddenly they already have a book called My Affair With Christ or something. And you're like, okay. This is clearly written by the PR person or something. Right?

But I think for the most part. I know with me. I deal with imposter syndrome really, really badly. And when I started coming on shows like this, people were like, oh, he's doing the right-wing grift.

And I was like, fellows, if I knew how to grift, I would have more money than I do. I wish I do.

But I remember when I found Jesus, I was like, oh, my gosh. For the first time, I don't care what people say.

Because it is something inside me. I know it's making me a better person. I don't need to defend Jesus. He's got it.

And so I think that, you know, when someone truly does find God, it doesn't need to turn into this sort of gossipy thing on the internet.

What I will say to Christians though, listening to this show. Is that we should be rooting.

If Jesus came back to look for apostles today. He's not taking no offense.

Like Joel Osteen or the Pope. Or people who are already sort of -- established religious people.

You know, when you look at --

GLENN: He didn't do it last time.

JAMIE: No, he took tax collectors. And sex workers. And all these people who were completely ostracized by the community.

GLENN: Imagine Paul, killing all the Christians. Oh, he's killing all the Christians, and what? He's now a Christian. That was a hard leap.

JAMIE: Yeah. There isn't even an equivalent, by the way, having Paul in your back pocket, is the best. Any time I feel like I screw up. I'm like, didn't kill Christians.
(laughter)

JAMIE: But like, you look at, I mean, some people could look at Kat Von D, me, Russell Brand in the same year. I didn't even know the Alex Jones thing. And go, oh, it's happening. The apocalypse is happening. But also, I would so much rather go, oh, that's so good.

There's a reason -- one of the things that's really great about -- so Alex is my wife. And we did our first episode about trauma bonding this week. And we talk a lot about these faith struggles I've been having.

And one of the cool things about being independent. So that was inspiring to hear your story. Is we're doing the show, Independent.

And what's cool about it, is I don't have to speak as a Christian influencer.

I can legitimately. You know, I still curse.

I still talk about my mistakes in the past.

I still ask questions.

I still go, I don't get that part of the Bible.

Or I don't know this thing.

And while a lot of Christians may look at that. And think I'm doing a disservice.

If our job is to make disciples.

And love our neighbors. Then me being able to reach out to Russell Brand to. Russell Brand being able to reach out to spiritual people. Gay people. You know, all these people that aren't going to be walking into a megachurch, or maybe have been ostracized or pushed away by the church.

And we can bring that person to Jesus, in a way that your best pastor, who can quote theology, like that. Could!

That is a good thing.

And then let God handle it.

I'm not saying I will bring a bunch of people to Jesus as a comedian.

GLENN: Right. Right.

JAMIE: But I can open the door to people, who would never trust religious institutions, and then God will deal with the other stuff.

GLENN: I -- I will tell you, Jamie. I think you and your wife, now Alex. Who is shockingly not a man. Who would have seen that? Easily.

JAMIE: You know, all those conservatives were wrong. Vegetarian doesn't mean -- whatever.

GLENN: Yeah. You guys have a -- you guys have a very bright future, ahead of you.

And I agree, there's so many people searching, and there's nothing more powerful, than watching somebody discover truth.

And even when you're not there, you're like, oh, now. Wait a minute.

I haven't thought about it that way. There is nothing more powerful.

The most powerful teacher who thinks they have it all. Not as powerful as the guy who is honestly searching every day for truth to take you on that journey.