RADIODecember 10, 2024

NBC News Leaves Out CRITICAL Context in Trump Interview

President-elect Donald Trump recently sat down with NBC News’ “Meet the Press” for his first sit-down interview since winning the 2024 election. Glenn and Stu review his statement on birthright citizenship and the CRITICAL context that interviewer Kristen Welker left out: The 14th Amendment doesn’t say, “all persons born in the United States are citizens.” The real quote includes a major qualifier that could allow Trump to end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants without having to change the Constitution. Plus, Glenn and Stu review Trump’s comments on the war between Ukraine and Russia.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Welcome to the program. And welcome to Stu Burguiere.

STU: Thank you, Glenn.

GLENN: You're welcome, Stu.

STU: And Donald Trump went on Meet The Press this weekend. This is what you're supposed to do if you're --

GLENN: Is it?

STU: Yeah, apparently so.

We're supposed to just reflexively go to NBC News whenever --

GLENN: Those days are over.

STU: Well, I thought they were too.

GLENN: Well, he has to do them.

STU: Well, does he? Does he have to do them?

GLENN: Yeah, I think he should do a little of everything.

You know what I mean? I think you shouldn't just go to podcasts. It's what Barack Obama did.

Remember? And he was doing interviews with -- who was that woman in the bathtub? And you're like, okay. This is ridiculous.

You don't have to do the bathtub one. But I think you should -- you should go on places, where you know --

STU: It's adversarial.

GLENN: It's adversarial. You won't get a good interview.

I think that's required as president.

STU: I agree with that. I --

GLENN: As president. Not necessarily as a --

STU: Even as a candidate, I think it's something you should do.

I mean, I think Kamala Harris shouldn't have done an adversarial interview at the campaign at some point, which she did not do.

GLENN: She didn't do interviews.

STU: In fact, she wasn't doing anything for a very long time.

And they switched strategies. And it did not help. In fact, it went the opposite direction.

I do wonder, there's the alternate world, what that election would have looked like, if she just continued to do nothing.

I think it would have been closer. I think if she never did an interview, it would have been closer.

GLENN: I think you're right on that.

I think you're right. The more she spoke.

The more you're like, oh, dear God, no.

STU: Don't do that.

GLENN: Yeah.

STU: Because I think they correctly realized that there were a certain amount of people, who were very worried about a candidate that couldn't do an interview.

GLENN: Right.

STU: Right?

So they tried to solve that, by doing interviews.

And what they should have done was let those people go. Realize, they're not going to vote for you, and hope.

GLENN: Has anybody noticed.

And I am biased because I've been talking to him, off-air.

STU: Uh-huh.

GLENN: And watching him talk to a lot of people, you know, without cameras around.

And his -- his grasp on deep subjects, has changed a great deal. Have you noticed Donald Trump in interviews is not the same guy he was in 2020?

STU: Yeah. I think that's true.

He certainly seems to be more focused and has a real plan, as to what he's going to do. As we know it's directly project 2025. Which he commissioned. We should remember, of course. Yeah. No.

It does seem like, you made the description.

I think it was last week, which it has been sticking with me.

Which, after 2020, he spent four years, thinking, this isn't going to happen to me again.

Like, I'm going to make sure these things -- if I get a president -- if I'm able to become president again. I'm not going to be able to be hit by all of these --

GLENN: I won't be surprised ever again.

STU: Right. It seems like he's coming in, ready for this.

GLENN: Yeah. He's ready.

The other thing that has happened to him. That I think has cut down on his slams and everything else.

I mean, he still does.

You'll notice he's not as crazy on things. And I think that's --

STU: What do you mean not as crazy on things? Just not as worried about --

GLENN: You know, name-calling. You know what I mean?

He's not like that, as much.

Because I think he -- this is just my speculation.

Put yourself in his shoes.

In 2014, everybody on both sides, loved him.

Right?

Maybe not as the president. But they -- they loved him.

STU: As a celebrity.

He was a big celebrity.

GLENN: And he's a great guy. A philanthropist.

He's done so much.

And then he gets in, and everybody that -- that were his friends.

STU: Uh-huh.

GLENN: That knew him, and knew what he was like. They all of a sudden, turned on him.

And I think that just took him by absolute surprise.

And he just kept -- he had to keep punching and punching and punching.

And I think now, a couple of things have happened. One, he just stopped caring. Because you -- you do care. No matter what anybody says, you do care.

He stopped caring. And then I think when he was shot, I think he found his purpose. And I also think in the following months, he kind of became cool again.

He became the guy who could go on Saturday Night Live, and make fun of himself.

STU: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

GLENN: You know what I mean? And everybody would accept him.

He became kind of mainstream again.

So I don't think he feels that he has to punch anymore.

STU: Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. I -- I have noticed a difference in him. I think getting shot. No matter what that is.

GLENN: Oh, yeah. That was critical. That was critical.

STU: It was.

GLENN: It has to change.

STU: Yeah. It has to change. So he's going into this with a real plan.

One part of this plan, this will be clip four. Is his plan to end birthright citizenship.

This is -- obviously, highly controversial. Many people on the left, do not like it at all.

They asked him about it, on meet The Press. Was it Wexler?

Christine Wexler.

GLENN: Yeah. Somebody who you've never heard of.

Because everybody you've heard of, has no credibility.
STU: There you go.

VOICE: You promised to end birthright citizenship on day one, is that still your plan?

VOICE: Yeah, absolutely.

VOICE: The Fourteenth Amendment says, quote, all persons born in the United States are citizens. Can you get around the Fourteenth Amendment, with an executive action?

DONALD: We maybe have to go back to the people, but we have to end it. We're the only county that has it. You know we're the only country that has it.

Do you know, if somebody sets a foot, just a foot. One foot. You don't need two. On our land, congratulations, you are now a citizen of the United States of America.

Yes, we're going to end that because it's ridiculous.

VOICE: Through executive action?

DONALD: Well, if we can through executive action, I was going to -- we had to fix COVID first, to be honest with you. We have to end it.

GLENN: Okay. So notice -- notice what happened here.

STU: Hmm.

GLENN: She comes with the 14th. Stu, tell me why the Fourteenth Amendment was first written. What was that really about?

STU: I mean, is it wrong to say slavery?

GLENN: No. Slavery.

STU: You looked at me --

GLENN: No, no, no.

It was written for slavery.

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: It was written because all citizens could vote.

And you have certain rights.

Blah, blah, blah. And so the southerners.

The Democrats said, well, they're not citizens.

They're not citizens.

They're from Africa.

STU: So they can't vote.

GLENN: So they can't vote.

Yeah. If you were born here. Even if you were born a slave, you're a citizen.

That's what that was about. That was not --

STU: About illegal immigration.

GLENN: That was not illegal immigration.

Come over here, get into a hospital. Have a baby.

And congratulations. Everybody is a citizen.

We are the only one that has it.

And the only reason we do have it is because of slavery.

It was a way to make sure that Democrats didn't just cut blacks out of the vote again.

STU: Uh-huh.

GLENN: That's what's so crazy.

And so notice he says, we may have to go back to the people.

Can you just change that?

Well, no. It's a constitutional amendment.

So we may have to go back to the people.

He says that first.

Her immediate response is, through executive action?

No. I just -- I just said, we may have to go back to the people.

STU: There are several parts in this interview. Where she doesn't -- it doesn't seem she listens to him. She has the idea of what Donald Trump says in this moment.

Already acted it out with her producers multiple times. So she's just not listening.

GLENN: That's right. That's why none of them have any credibility. Because there's not an honest exchange.

There is no honest questions.

He just said, we may have to go -- he volunteered. We may have to go back to the American people, for that.

STU: Right.

GLENN: So you're suggesting that maybe it would be a constitutional amendment? Well, yeah. I think we would have to do it.

I might -- if I get stuck, I might find a way to do it with executive action. But it is a constitutional amendment.

So, yes, that's an honest conversation.

STU: Right. No.

GLENN: That's not what she did.

STU: No. Do we have this clip handy again, to play it again? I want to see if you catch this one little of this. This is clip four, again.

Listen to her verbiage of the Fourteenth Amendment.

VOICE: Do you promise to end birthright citizenship on day one?

Is that still your plan?

DONALD: Yeah. Absolutely.

The Fourteenth Amendment says though, quote, all persons born in the United States are citizens. Can you get around the Fourteenth Amendment?

STU: Okay. Stop.

Is that a quote?

All persons born in the United States are citizens?

That's what she said the Fourteenth Amendment says.

GLENN: You know, now that you ask me, I doubt it is. Have you looked it up?

STU: I have it. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, she leaves that out. But not necessarily important to the conversation.

But the next part is, comma, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, comma, are citizens of the United States and of the state written they reside.

The whole Fourteenth Amendment argument. And you might disagree with this part of it, is that that phrase, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, means that illegal immigrants are not included.

Now, I --

GLENN: How? How?

STU: Well, they're not subject to that jurisdiction.

GLENN: So, in other words, the -- well, if mom --

STU: They would be.

GLENN: If mom and baby, were there. Then they would be subject to that jurisdiction.

But the family would not be. Because they're someplace else?

STU: I think the argument, and again, I wouldn't say I'm an expert on the Fourteenth Amendment argument here.

GLENN: I'm going to tell you.

I am absolutely so far away from an expert. You might as well talk to a fisherman.

STU: What I have heard, people make this argument before.

GLENN: Okay.

STU: And the argument is basically to be subject to that jurisdiction. Is it not mean that you -- everyone, of course, has to follow the laws of a country, that you move into.

GLENN: Correct.

STU: To be subject of that jurisdiction. Means you have to have a basis in the country.

So it's not like you just cross the border. And, hey, I'm now a subject of this jurisdiction.

You're a visitor, right?

Or in this case, a criminal. And I'm crossing the border.

GLENN: Right.

STU: So you would not get necessarily those protections.

Of -- of that Fourteenth Amendment.

GLENN: May I just say, the only thing I hate the Founders for, is their use of commas.

STU: You know, it's a good point.

GLENN: Stop with the use of commas.

Could you please, for the love of Pete, the right to keep and bear arms.

Comma.

STU: Uh-huh.

GLENN: Under a well-run regulated militia.

Comma. Shall not be infringed.

Can you stop with the commas? It makes it too complex now. Stop with the commas.

STU: Very true.

But I think, regardless of what you think about the argument, of the 14th amendment. And people who are -- who believe illegal immigrants would not be grandfathered into that.

If it's foundational to the argument, why would you skip it?

Right?

GLENN: Right.

STU: You have to bring that up. Because --

GLENN: Could you do me a favor?

Could you have ChatGPT? Or something like that?

STU: Yeah. Yeah.

GLENN: Type that in, and ask what that means.

STU: Sure. It will take me a second, obviously.

GLENN: Yeah, yeah. All right.

STU: Do you want to go on to the next clip.

GLENN: Yeah. Let's go to the next clip.

STU: Okay. Next someone on Ukraine.

And what needs to happen with Ukraine.

This is, again, Trump on Meet The Press.

There are people being killed in that war, at levels never been seen before.

You have to go back to the Second World War. And even that, if you take a look and you know what it is, it's the soldiers, largely. The cities have been emptied out and demolished.

The country has been demolished.

If I won that election. Which you know how I feel about it. I won't get into it.

Because we don't need to start that argument.

I think it was an easy argument.

It was really proven even more complicit than the win I had on this one.

Yeah, but that's your opinion, but I disagree with it. Had I assumed -- kept control.

Number one, Israel wouldn't have happened.

Number one, Ukraine would have never happened.

It would have never happened in Ukraine and Russia.

But the number of people being killed. Soldiers. Young, beautiful soldiers.

Hundreds of thousands of people are being killed.

And, you know, it's very interesting.

It's level. Totally level the battlefields.

Totally level.

The only thing that stops a bullet. Is a body. A human body. And the people being killed. Hundreds of thousands on both sides. Russia has lost probably 500 thousand. Ukraine has lost higher than they say.

Probably 400,000.

You're talking about hundreds of thousands of bodies, laying all over the fields.

It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

And it should have need been allowed to happen.

Biden should have been able to stop it.

GLENN: Amen!

He's absolutely right.

And when this is over, and the body count is actually revealed, and when you see. And when you see BlackRock there, rebuilding.

When you see all of these friends of the Bidens rebuilding.

When you see BlackRock owning the farmland.

Then maybe you will start to have some idea of how grotesque, this really was.

All right. More in just a second.

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Ten-second station ID.
(music)

GLENN: So let's go to Chat GPT.

And just see what it says about the Fourteenth Amendment and that particular phrase, between commas.

STU: And I will say our robot betters seem to have summarized this the same way that I understood it. So historically, the consensus among most legal scholars and historical practices has been the phrase, excludes only a few categories. This is the phrase of "not subject to the jurisdiction in the United States."

Those categories are children of foreign diplomats, enemy soldiers, and some Native American tribes, who maintain their tribal jurisdiction.

Legal precedent has largely supported the view that children born in the US to foreign citizens are indeed US citizens.

Regardless of the immigration status of the parents.

Then some conservatives argue, subject to the jurisdiction, thereof, excludes individuals who are in the country, illegally, as they are not legally subject to the jurisdiction in the same way as lawful residents or citizens.

GLENN: Yes.

STU: They claim that because illegal immigrants have not entered the country, and remain in it legally, that they or their children should not automatically receive citizenship.

That is my understanding of the debate. And, again, you can say, you disagree with the conservative side of that debate.

GLENN: Right.

STU: You know, many do.

But to -- to actually skip the phrase, that is important to the debate. When talking to the man, who is arguing the conservative side of that debate. Is journalism malpractice, at the very least.

And I think it's intentional.

I believe it's intentional. But I don't know.

GLENN: Wait. I think it's NBC.
(laughter)

STU: It's not intentional. It's NBC.

GLENN: It's NBC.

STU: It's just what we are.

GLENN: It's just what they do. Of course it is.

STU: Yes! And that's, again, like -- it goes back to our original conversation, as opposed to whether you Meet the Press or not.

Do you need to go to a place that is intentionally doing things like that?

I mean, that is -- that is inexcusable for the one phrase that's important to the debate, you leave out of the amendment?

I mean, that's obviously intentional.

GLENN: I like the fact that the president was calm, cool, collected. Didn't name call. Went through that whole thing.

Wasn't a fair interview. It was exactly what you would expect. But at least he went and talked to the other side.

STU: Yeah. I think it's worth doing to talk to the other side.

I think it's worth doing adversarial interviews.

I wish he had a little honesty.

I feel like when you went back on the show with Russer. That's what you got.

Was -- it wasn't an interview liked. A lot of times, he took things, and took the democratic side a little unfairly. But you wouldn't eliminate the part of the amendment, that is the debate.

GLENN: Yeah.

STU: He wouldn't have done that.

GLENN: No. And he would have given you -- there were times, that Ruser -- you would be pissed off at him. Because it was your guy. But you would also be cheering for the other side. Because he was fair. He was even-handed.

It was all that really, we asked for.

Meta’s AI “Friends” Nightmare: How Zuckerberg’s Latest Move Could Enslave Your Mind

Meta and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg has a new goal: to give lonely Americans AI “friends.” But Glenn sounds the alarm: this must NEVER happen! Glenn explains the hidden danger in Zuckerberg’s seemingly kindhearted plan: “AI cannot, must not, and will never be your friend.” Opening that door will only give Meta insane levels of potential for manipulation and control over you.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Let's start with this: Mark Zuckerberg. Good guy. I mean, he brought us Facebook.

And, you know, that is the thing that brought all of us together.

Brought out families together. All the people that we lost touch with.

Oh, the world is so much better now that we have Facebook.

So now, he's got another idea. Could we play the clip of Mark Zuckerberg?

VOICE: There's a stat that I honestly think is crazy. The average American has I think it's fewer than three friends. Three people they consider friends. And the average person has demand for meaningfully more. I think it's 15 friends or something.

I guess there's probably at some point, I'm too busy. I can't deal with more people. But the average person wants more connectivity, connection than they have. So, you know, there's a lot of questions that people ask.

Of stuff like, okay. Is this going to replace kind of in person connections or real life connections?

And my default is that the answer to that is probably no.

I think it -- it -- I think that there are all these things that are better kind of about physical connections, when you can have them.

But the reality is that people just don't have the connection when they feel more alone, a lot of the time, than they would like.

GLENN: Hmm. True.

Now, let me ask you. Is there a time when you don't remember feeling so isolated? When you didn't really feel like I don't have any real friends?

When you didn't -- you had real connections with people, instead of a million connections with people that are your friends, but not really your friends?

Can you think of a time, way back in history?

I mean, probably have to go back to the cavemen, to find a time.

Oh. Before Facebook, and social media!

When we weren't all killing ourself, because we have no meaning.

Now, from the people who brought you kill yourself, because you've been on Facebook too much.

Brings you new AI friends. Oh, this is going to be good.

By the way, you know, that's a crazy stat, I think the average American has, what? Three friends. And they have a capacity for, I don't know. Fifteen or 20. I don't know.

Really think about it right now.

How many true friends, do you have?

How many true friends?

People that when you are down and out, there is nothing -- the whole world is against you!

That that person will actually stand by your side. And go, yeah.

I'm their friend.

And I don't care what you say.

How many? How many do you have?

I think I would count myself lucky if I have three.

Now, I have a lot of consequences.

I have a lot of people who we all think are friends. But as a recovering alcoholic, I've been there.

I've done that. As a recovering alcoholic,
who then also is a conservative and spoke out about the Obama administration, I know who my friends are.
I know who my friends are not.

And I think there's a lot of people that have counterfeit friends.

If you've got. Oh, I've got ten or 15 friends.

Eh.

No, you don't. No, you don't.

I've always grown up thinking, you're lucky, you're lucky, to have three, five, really good friends.

That will walk through anything with you. Do you agree with that, Stu?

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: You've never been there.

STU: For you? Oh, God no. But I'm just saying, generally speaking. No. I think -- I mean, you're describing a great friend. You're describing a really --

GLENN: A real friend.

STU: Yeah. Like someone you know and stick around for multiple decades.

GLENN: Yeah, I have lots of friends. You know what I mean? I have millions of Facebook friends.

STU: Right. Those aren't real.

GLENN: Right. And I have lots of friends. But the ones that are there for you always, no matter what, I have family.

And I have family.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And I have a handful of friends. I would consider you one of those.

STU: Thank you. I would as well.

GLENN: Why?

Remember, I have a drinking problem.

STU: Yeah. A lot of brain cells killed to make that decision.

But I think that you -- yes. I think the only thing that I think I'm drilling down a little bit on to try to understand. When you say, well, I have a lot of friends.

In a way, I think that's what Zuckerberg is talking about.

It's not even necessarily a great friend that you have for multiple decades. And can count on at any time.

Just the mid-level consequences, are drying up for a lot of people.

GLENN: Yeah. And why is that?

Why is that?

Because we don't talk to each other anymore.

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: Because of social media.

You know, when this generation says, I don't know.

I just think it's weird. I'm just now in a bar someplace.

And some stranger comes up to me and wants to strike up a conversation. I'm like, hello, weirdo. I don't know!

You think it's less weird to go online?
When people can fake everything!

Thank you, Mark Zuckerberg.

But no thanks. Okay.

STU: And they're just -- to build up on this point for one second.

There's a study that came out, the last 20 years, of how much time do you spend socializing with the people.

Again, that's not with your best friends.

This is just socializing with anyone, a human.

Every single group. Every single group has massive drops.

GLENN: Massive.

STU: Massive drops. Just give you some examples.

Ages. Fifteen to 24-year-olds. Thirty-five-point down.

In 20 years. 35 percent. So a typical 15-year-old, as compared to what they are, in 2003 and 2025, where were the two measurement years?

They're spending 35 percent less time, with other human beings.

GLENN: Okay. Hang on just a second. Can you please stop distracting me? Because I'm trying to figure out why our kids are killing themselves.

STU: No, it's really hard.

GLENN: It's very hard to figure out.

STU: To understand.

And this is the coup de grâce of this entire study, which is, the typical female pet owner spends more time actively engaged with her pet, than she spends face-to-face contact with her friends of her own species.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: That is unbelievable -- not like you're in the same house as your cat.

Right? No. More face-to-face time with your cat!

GLENN: And I've got news for you. If you think your cat is your friend, wait until you die, and your cat is trapped in the house with you and you have no friends to check. They will eat your face.

STU: They will still have a use for you.

GLENN: Yeah. They will have a use foy.

STU: Not the other way around.

GLENN: Okay. Here's why I'm bringing this up today.

This is a lie, that is going to be sold to you, like crazy. And it's going to be wrapped in a beautiful, shiny package. And it's going to have from Mark Zuckerberg and others like him, on the tag.

They want you to believe, that AI and bots can be your friends.

Will the Conclave Elect a RADICAL Pope to Follow Francis?

The Conclave to elect the Catholic Church’s next Pope has begun. But will the next Pope be “conservative” and orthodox, will he follow in Pope Francis’ footsteps and be more friendly to leftist and globalist ideas, or will he be an “anti-Pope,” as some Catholics are claiming Francis was? Glenn speaks with LifeSiteNews co-founder and CEO, John-Henry Westen, who reviews the most likely candidates for the papacy and why he believes the “anti-Pope” claims against Francis are not ungrounded.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN:

THIS is Why We Don’t Trust the Mainstream Media

A recent New York Times hit piece is a perfect example of why many Americans no longer trust the newspaper. Glenn compares the piece, which criticizes “The MartyrMade Podcast” host Darryl Cooper’s revisionist history, with the New York Times’ own “1619 Project,” written by Nikole Hannah Jones. Glenn disagrees with both people about major historical events. But the Times, with its elitist hypocrisy, pushed Jones’ attempt to frame America as a racist nation since its inception as unquestionable truth. “I’m not defending [Cooper or Jones],” Glenn says. “I’m defending the idea that We the People decide what’s true, and that takes work and curiosity…The minute you let somebody else decide what you’re allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I want to take on something else that I don't know. Maybe I should just keep my big, fat mouth shut.

Because I think this one will piss off everybody. But it's the truth. There was a story in the New York Times. The podcaster asking for you to side with history's villains. It was in the New York Times. Let me read something.

Darryl Cooper is no scholar. But legions of fans, many on the right, can't seem to resist what he presents as hidden truths.

All of a sudden, everyone was coming for Darryl Cooper. There were the newspaper columnists. The historians. The Jewish groups. Repugnant says the chairman of Yadveshev (phonetic), Israel's Holocaust museum in a statement.

Even the Biden White House released a statement, calling him a Holocaust denier who spreads Nazi propaganda. So it was for a time for Mr. Cooper. One of the most popular podcaster in the country, to do what he does best. Hit record.

In a special on his history program, Martyr Made. Mr. Cooper addressed the controversy, which had exploded out of September 2nd appearance on the Tucker Carlson Show.

The podcast started by the former Fox News host. At first, Mr. Cooper, a gifted historic storyteller, but not a trained historian, defended the claims he had made on Mr. Carlsen's show. One that Winston Churchill was the chief villain of the war. Ridiculous. Not by implication. Adolf Hitler.

The two -- and two, that millions had died in Nazi-controlled Eastern Europe because Nazis had not adequately planned to feed them. Okay. Not true.

He then said, the story goes on to say, I don't know if we retracted some of that stuff. This emotional ventriloquism is part of Mr. Cooper's approach and appeal. On TikTok, a fan praised him as one of the best historians of our time, because he tries to go out of his way, to understand the perspective of everyone involved in a situation.

These critics have probably helped make Mr. Cooper bigger than ever. He's been the most subscribed to history newsletter on Substak. One spot ahead of the evident economic historian, Adam HEP Toos in the wake of the Rogan interview. Martyrmade. Blah, blah, blah.

Okay. So they go on and on and on. To talk about how this just can't stand. I mean, we've got to -- there's got to be some sort of filter. And, you know, Joe Rogan just can't have on, whoever he wants to have on. That's the problem!

Is it? New York Times. Is that the problem?

Hmm, that's really interesting.

Now, let me just look and -- and let me just look in the past here, and see if we've had this exact same problem, with anybody else. Because the person that came to mind was not Darryl Cooper, but Nicole Hannah Jones. Because I think those two are the same coin, and the coin is counterfeit.

Just opposite sides of the same coin. The martyr made podcast spins a tale of grievance and distrust. And it's wrapped in enough fact to keep it plausible.

But there are some facts in there. Okay.

Jones, she did the 1619 Project.

She did the same thing in reverse. Except, I think she's actually worse.

I mean, because I think she made up almost everything in that. She recasts American history. As racist from the very inception of the country.

Neither one of them is telling the whole truth. Neither one of them. Neither wants to, I think. They're both in the business of narrative, and not history.

So am I. But I tried to be fair.

The real problem is not these two.

Honestly, it's the New York Times.

Because in their Sunday styles, write-up on Cooper.

The Times poses as a concerned observer.

Wary of growing influence among the disaffected right.

Why are we disaffected. Why is the right disaffected?

We're disaffected because you have tried to take our country from us.

Everything that we believe. Our history.

Our values. Our traditions. And you've tried to denigrate them. And destroy them, every step of the way.

And you've done them with one lie, right after another.

Okay?

Why are they framing him. Not with facts. But with suspicion.

Not because he's -- dishonest or not dishonest. But because he's popular. They clutch their pearls, because he has an audience. And only the New York Times can have that you audience.

But where that was concern, when they did -- when they gave an audience to Nicole Hannah Jones.

And gave her a Pulitzer for a project now so discredited by the very historians that are now talking about Cooper!

Where was the caution when they declared that 1619, not 1776, was the true founding of the nation? They didn't question her authority. They didn't say, well, she's not a historian. They printed it. In fact, they taught it, and endorsed it. They platformed it in schools!

That's different than anything that Joe Rogan is doing. They platformed it in schools.

So let's be clear. Okay?

I think both Cooper and Jones are wrong.

They may have points worth considering.

But I think that they get it fundamentally wrong, in a few places.

They are looking at facts to sell the story.

And not necessarily reveal the truth.

Now, maybe I'm being too cynical.

But that's the way I see it. And I'm not condemning either one.

I'm condemning all of those on the left, or the right, that are now doing the same thing that the New York Times did with -- with Cooper, but didn't do with Anna Nicole Jones. Only one of those two was lauded by the New York Times, as legitimate. And a necessary corrective, even though, it was all a lie! Made up!

So that's what -- when I'm -- I'm reading that op-ed in the New York Times.

I can't take the -- oh, my gosh. The hypocritical nature of it. Just, blood shoots out of my eyes.

Because that's what the New York Times is actually saying. Don't you little people understand. We must decide what stories are acceptable. Not you!

Not somebody like Joe Rogan. We will decide. Which distortion are his virtuous and which ones are dangerous. Not you.

We get to choose the false prophets that get a column, which -- and which ones are called conspiracy theorists. We, at the New York Times, we in the media!

And athat is the problem! This isn't about the authors. Okay. First Amendment gives him a right to say whatever they want.

You may not like. You don't like it, stop listening.

Well, but other people might listen. Yeah. Well, other people might listen.

Maybe we should pay more attention to our education in our schools. Maybe we should pay more attention, so we don't become somebody that is a dummy, themselves. And are -- because this is the problem!

We don't have a press that exposes lies anymore. We have a press that curates the lies.

I really think this is why I started collecting -- you know, we have now, the third largest collection of founding indictments, in the American journey experience.

Along with David Barton's wall builders.

It is -- it's only behind the national archives. And the library of Congress.

Most people don't know it. Because, you know, we don't talk about it yet.

Beginning in '26. We will be making a big deal out of it.

We also have the largest collection of pilgrim era artifacts and documents in the world.

The largest. So I can tell you what happened in Jamestown in 1619.

I can tell you this, the ship that Hannah HEP Nicole Jones talks about. There were no slaves on that ship.

How do I know?

We have the manifest!

No slaves. Hmm. That seems problematic, doesn't it?

And the Mayflower did not launch a system of slavery.

In fact, they fought against it.

We -- this is so crazy.

What the Pilgrims did against slavery was remarkable.

Remarkable. When a slave shipbuildingsly gave into their port, it was -- slavery was against the law. They called it man stealing.

It was against the law. As soon as the slave came into port. You could smell the slave ship. They knew exactly what it was. They marched and up arrested the captain of the ship.

They put anymore irons. And put him in jail.

And these people, who were already paying 15 percent of everything they make. These poor people.

15 percent of everything they make, to a king they can't be they despise. But they paid it, because they wanted to just stay alive.

They took up a collection from each other. Not outside. From each other.

Got a new captain. Refueled. Restocked the ship. And sent those people. Those slaves back to Africa, so they could be free!

That's who our pilgrims were. Don't believe me? You don't have to take my word for it.
We have the evidence. Please, you know, the longest running treaty with Native Americans happened with our Pilgrims. And you know who broke it? Not the white man. It was the Native Americans! And you know why?

Because after years and years of the Pilgrims and the Native Americans getting along, Christianity was starting to seep into their culture. And they needed to go to war with the tribe. And the war that the way they used to fight it, the Native Americans, it was okay to enslave your enemy.

In fact, you needed to.

You could torture them, after you won!

Just to make a point. And then you would enslave anybody you wanted.

And Christianity said, no. You can't do either one of those things.

And so the native Americans, that were part of this tribe, that were and friends under this treaty, with the Pilgrims. They started telling their chief. You know, we can't do these things.

And the chief got so pissed. Because he was like, we're fighting a war.

We fought it like they always fought it.

That they broke the treaty. Did you know that?

No. They were just horrible. We stole the land.

Ay-yi-yi. Did America live up to its ideals?

No! Has anybody, ever?

Have you? Has the pope? Has anybody really lived up to their ideals all the time?

No! But you have ideals, and that's what matters.

By the way, on the other side, I also happen to own a few original Nazi documents, from the actual perpetrators. I've got documents from the engineer that actually calculated how much Zyklon B it would take to murder a room full of Jews, okay?

It wasn't because they didn't want to -- they didn't have enough food.

This was calculated. I have the final prescription signed by Dr. Mengele, for a thousand liters of lumen that will for the so-called children's hospital. That's how the right was killing the undesirables in the children's hospital.

They didn't do it in a frenzy. It wasn't a riot. It wasn't out of desperation. It was silence out of lab coats, and beauracrats and experts signing off, and the press like the New York Times refusing to say a word about it. The scariest people are not the ones in the streets. They weren't. They were the ones with titles. With offices, with press credentials.

They were the ones with the doctorates.
They were the people who decided what could be published.

Who could be punished. What could be known? What could be said?

And that's the danger that we're staring down, right now. Not from cringe theorists on a podcast. Not even from overzealous academics with a Pulitzer.

But from the institutions that bless one distortion, and condemn the other.

Not based on truth. But based on usefulness.

Is it useful to our side?

I just want you to know. This is my stance on this. and make this very, very clear.

The First Amendment does not exist to protect comfortable speech. It doesn't exist to protect Cooper, as opposed to Jones. It exists to protect both of them!

It protects uncomfortable points of view.

Things you do not like to hear. And disagreement. It protects people who are absolutely wrong, and even those who are lying!

It protects the process, so you can figure it out. There is no licensed priesthood in our country.

You know, that are -- the priesthood of truth-tellers. No official ministry of facts.

That's where countries go wrong. The Times should be exposing both sides of these stories.

Just like I'm doing.

The distortions of the right, and the left.

But instead, they become exactly what they've warned us about.

A newspaper that prints dogma, and not dialogue.

And the real problem here: No.

The real solution here is you. Jefferson warned that a man who reads nothing but newspapers.
Sorry. A man who reads nothing is better informed than a man who only reads the newspaper. Okay? I would say, the newspaper is today's social media.

Man who reads nothing is more well-educated than a man who just only reads social media.

But today we might say, better to be ignorant than confidently misled by trusted media.

They see themselves not as a watch to go. But as a shepherd. And we are the sheep.

So I am not defending either one.

I am defending the idea that we, the people. Not the institutions. Not the elites. Not the New York Times.

Not Joe Rogan.

You decide what's true. And that takes work and that takes curiosity. Maybe the other guy is wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I don't have the whole story either. I don't know.

Look it up. Because the minute you let somebody else decide, what you're allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think!

What Christian Movies Can Learn from Serial Killer Films

Christian movies can learn a whole lot from serial killer murder mysteries, The Daily Wire’s Andrew Klavan tells Glenn. While Christian films tend to have good messages, they don’t often touch on the dark realities of this fallen world we live in – realities that even the Bible addresses through the stories of Cain and Abel and many others. Instead, Klavan argues, he gets more biblical truths out of movies like “Halloween” and “The Silence of the Lambs” and books like “Crime and Punishment” than he does films like “God’s Not Dead.” Klavan tells Glenn how he finds God in the literature of darkness, a topic he further delves into in his new book, “The Kingdom of Cain.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Andrew Klavan. Host of the Andrew Klavan program. The Andrew Klavan Show.

How are you, sir?

ANDREW: I'm good. Good to see you.

GLENN: Good to see you. I don't think I've seen you out of your element ever.

ANDREW: Yes, I've been many times to the studio.

GLENN: Have you? Well, they were memorable.

ANDREW: I get this reaction a lot.

GLENN: No. I just love you. I love you. And I got to tell you, the best compliment I could give you, your son is remarkable.

ANDREW: He is remarkable. He is.

GLENN: I hope some day, somebody will say that by my children. Really remarkable.

You and your wife are amazing parents.

ANDREW: Oh, well, thank you.

GLENN: So tell me about the Kingdom of Cain, and talk down to me.

ANDREW: It's a really simple book, and very entertaining, because it's about the movies that we all love.

GLENN: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. He says this. Let me read this to you, Stu, and see if you understand what this is.

STU: The Kingdom of Cain looks at three murders in history, including the first murder. Cain's killing of his brother Abel. And at the art created from imaginative engagement, from those horrific events by artists ranging from Dostoyevsky to Hitchcock. To make beauty out of the world, as it is shot through with evil and injustice and suffering. It is the task, not just of the artist, but Klavan argues of every life rightly lived.

Examining how the transformation occurs in art. Grants us a vision of how it could happen in our life. What is this about?

STU: I don't know what you're missing.

ANDREW: I will tell you, I'm a crime writer. Right? I get this letter all the time. Constantly. It says, you call yourself a Christian.

That part is true, and yet you write about horrific things. You right about murder.

Prostitutes and gangsters, and all this stuff.

Why do you do that?

And the reason is very simple. I believe that God is a central fact of reality. And I believe that any artist who speaks truthfully about reality, will speak about God.

And so what I did. I took three murders. Three very famous murders.

I showed how they inspired works of art. Over and over and over again.

They're -- not just one work of art. But they kept coming back, inspiring other works of art. And how those works of art actually speak about something, that happens to a society, when it begins to lose its faith. As our society has certainly done.

You know, and they chart those works of art, and some of them are like the stupidest little horror movie.

And yet, the guy who is making that horror movie understood what he was talking about.

And can show you. If you go back, for instance, and watch a slasher movie. Like Halloween, which is a very scary movie.

It's actually about the fall of the end of faith. And how it destroys sexual responsibilities.

So it takes place in the suburb. Have you seen it?

GLENN: Wait. Wait. Yeah. I have seen it.

ANDREW: Where there are no moms. And the dads are very weak.

And this knife-wielding crazy man comes back. And basically preys on kids having sex while nobody is watching.

And it's a very, very stark picture. I bet if you asked the director what he was doing, he would tell you that. It's right in the movie, when he see that. But you have to be watching this.

The thing is, these movies are -- not just movies. But novels.

The arts are -- really reveal the conscience of a culture.

GLENN: Yes.

ANDREW: And so taking the way they look at murder, tells us things that are bad about our culture.

But it also tells us about ways we want to go in the future.

The role, for instance, of psychiatrists in -- in these films.

Films. Most of these films are based on murder, committed by Ed Dean in the 1950s, a guy who was constant. Who used to kill women.

Right?

And then dress up in their bodies. Just like in Silence of the Lambs. That inspired Psycho.

It inspired a really good horror movie called the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Even though it's a crazy title. It's actually a good movie. The Silence of the Lambs. All of these movies grow out of that one murder.

And what it's about? It's about confusion. It's about sexual. About gender. You know, we don't see that going around nowadays. In fact, it's everywhere. In fact, these movies were made in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, and '80s and on. And so they were predicting, as art often does, what was going to happen, and explaining why.

GLENN: So do you think Alford Hitchcock knew that this was coming? Or he was just a good storyteller?

ANDREW: You are a good story teller. Who was it? T. S. Eliot said a great poet writes himself, and in writing himself, he writes his time.

And I think that that's what happens. These artists basically bring something out of themselves. But it reveals where we are all are. And it reveals where we are going. If you see where we are, you can tell where we're going.

That's why the book does not just concentrate on the darkness. It actually says. What do you do?

How do you react? Now that you know what's happening. How do you react to those things in a creative, joyful way?

Because this is -- the Bible doesn't say things will be great. The Bible says. Yeah.

GLENN: That's not the main point.

ANDREW: Being crucified. And at the same time, it says, rejoice ever more.

GLENN: Right.

ANDREW: So one of the things that really bothers me about Christian movies.

Is they don't really represent life.

If you do a Christian movie, that has real things in it, you get slammed.

Why would you put it in?

Why was there sex? Why was there murder?

One of the major influences that turned me to Christ, when I was 19 years old. That took three decades to kick in.

But it was reading Crime and Punishment. About an axe murderer. And about a prostitute who basically turns this axe murderer's life around.

If you walked into a Christian bookstore today.

And say, can I have that book about the axe murderer and the hooker? Yeah, they would look at you like you were nuts. Because Dostoyevsky was a great artist and a great Christian.

One of the truly deep and interesting Christians in history.

He revealed something about the philosophies that were rising up at that time.

And that are still with us today. And the philosophies that later became spoken out by Nietzsche. And Nietzsche affected all of the leftist philosophers that you and I have loved so much. And have done so many good things for our survival.

GLENN: So let's pretend somebody didn't read that by Dostoyevsky or whatever his name is.

And tell us the story -- and tell us the story. And exactly what -- what he was teaching.

ANDREW: Well, the idea is God is dead.

And therefore, instead of having this horrible Christian philosophy. That is nice to the poor. And the weak, and has charity. And compassion.

We need strong special men. Like Napoleon, for instance. Who will make their own law.

And this man, in this story. Crime and Punishment says, well, if I can make my own law, I can murder somebody.

And it will be a sin. It won't be wrong.

And then he actually accomplishes this murder.

And finds a way. Oh, wait. I've actually shattered the moral order. And now my life is spiraling out of control.

Now, Nietzsche wrote his philosophy, which is the exact philosophy in his book.

After Dostoyevsky wrote the novel, and then his philosophy inspired two murderers in America, named Leopold and Lowe. This was called the crime of the century. The crime of the 20th century.

GLENN: I don't remember it.

ANDREW: I know, nobody remembers it now, but it was one of the biggest crimes of the century. It inspired countless movies and television shows.

It was two kids, they were -- they were rich, gay Jewish kids in the suburbs.

GLENN: What year?

ANDREW: This is 19 -- I want to say 30 -- 30 or 40.

GLENN: Okay.

ANDREW: Yeah. It was the '30s. I'm sorry.

And they decided, well, we're Superman. Like Nietzsche. They read Nietzsche. And they thought, yes. This is what we want to be.

One of them. We will commit the perfect murder, to show we could do it.

They took a kid at random, who they know, and killed them.

GLENN: This is Rope.

ANDREW: Exactly. Exactly. And Rope became the Hitchcock film. And also inspired Compulsion, which is another movie.

Almost a true movie about it. Pops up again and again.

Two people who said, we will commit the perfect murder. Because we're superior.

If you look for it, you will find it in one story after another.

And it's based on the idea, that there's no God. And therefore, anything is permissible, and strong men have to make the rules.

GLENN: That's one of the best movies out of Hitchcock.

Nobody even knows it. Great movie from Hitchcock. And great movie with Jimmy Stewart and just really -- and disturbing.

ANDREW: Yeah, and written -- the original play was written by the guy who also wrote a play called Gaslight, which is where we get the word gaslighting.

So I talk all about these works of art. These works and movies. And listen, I think it's an entertaining book, Glenn.

GLENN: I love your work. I love your work. Most people, if you don't know who Andrew Klavan is.

You've written movies. I mean, you've written just some thrilling novels.

And novels that have been made into movies. And I'm a huge, huge fan.

But, I mean, you know, you are talking to mice here.

ANDREW: I try to just make it about things that people like and enjoy.

GLENN: Yeah. So what is -- what is the lesson that we learn from -- from all of this?

ANDREW: Well, I think the most important lesson, if I can call it that, in the book. Is that the beauty has something to do with the answer to evil.

You know, one of the things that keeps people from believing in God. They say, there's so much evil in the world.

How can a good God, allow this evil to exist?

And at the end of the book, the last third of the book. Which is a very personal statement about what I do, to basically live joyfully in the world, that I can see is evil.

It ends with looking at the statue of Michelangelo. Which is one of the most beautiful works --

GLENN: Beautiful.

ANDREW: But it think about what it's about, Glenn. It's about a mother with her dead son. It is a world with a dead God. It's the worst movement in human history. And yet Michelangelo, a man, made it beautiful.

And my question at the end of the book, is if a man can take that misery, that suffering, that evil, and turn it into beauty, what can God do with the world that we're living in now?

When he works with the marvel of eternity. And so I work my way to that point, by going to the movies that we watch, the stories that we read.

And why we're so fascinated with murder.

You know, think about try crime. This is what this is about.

STU: Why are we?

ANDREW: Because it is the borderline, where you cannot say, there's something right about this.

It's the place where I suddenly realize that the moral order has its great points, but it also has a very stark --

GLENN: So explain to me. Explain to me why shows like, let's say.

Yellowstone.

Are so satisfying, because you're kind of like -- kind of like seeing that guy taking to the train station.

You know what I mean?

You know that it's wrong. But you're kind of in there. You're kind of like -- you know.

And you feel. At least I do. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people watch. Yeah. That's fine.

I watch it. I don't like the fact that I kind of -- I'm rooting for them.

ANDREW: I think the best art does that to you. I really enjoy this. That actually tells me something about myself, that I don't want to think about.

GLENN: Yeah.

ANDREW: See, a lot of people think art is like a sugar pill, that they used to give you a little lesson in life. A little parable of sorts. I don't think that's what it is at all.

I think it's an experience that you really can't have in your life, that broadens the way you look at life. Broadens your view of humanity. So when you get Christian stories like God Is Not Dead. I don't want to pick on anybody.

GLENN: But you'll pick on them.

ANDREW: I will pick on them. The guy is hit by a car. He says, well, at least he was saved.

I think, really? We can't just say -- you can't call his wife say, and say, this is a sad moment. Let me grieve when people die? We can't say we're horrified by death and afraid?

So I want Christian art that deals with life in a real way.

And shows that people who are afraid. And people who have evil thoughts, and people who want to justify murder. And they -- there are moments when we all sort of think -- but if you go off into a room by yourself and ask, how can I make the perfect world?

Within two minutes, so help me.

You will be committing mass murder in your mind.

Let me see. Well, first, I have to go to rid of these people because these people can't be reformed. You'll wipe them out, right?

So that's who we all are.

When he start to see that. I believe that's actually a layer on top of who we really.

I believe who we really are is who Christ wants us to be. That's the question.

How do you get through that layer?

That's what artists do for us. They show us our true selves.

And lead our conscience to the place we're supposed to go.

GLENN: All right. Our natural soul is who Christ wants us to be.

ANDREW: Right.

GLENN: And we're encapsulated in this flesh. And the natural man is an enemy to that. And it's the battle back and forth.

ANDREW: And that's what art is. That battle. That's where drama comes from. That's where tragedy comes from.

You know, one of the stories I mentioned in the Kingdom of Cain is Macbeth, because it's such a great story about murder.

And it ends with the most beautiful speech about nihilism, about things, nothing makes sense. Nothing is worth anything. Right? Life is a tale told by an idiot. But because you're watching a play, you understand, Shakespeare is not saying that. A guy has detached himself from the moral order is saying that. He's lost the meaning of life, because he's detached himself from the meaning of life.

And so studying murder and writing art about murder. Takes you to the most serious questions about who we are. And who we really are. And what we really want. And how we -- you know, that inner battle that goes on. Which is to me, the source of drama.