Was Charlie Kirk a Christian martyr? Pastor Josh McPherson tells Glenn Beck that he believes the answer is clear: “They killed Charlie Kirk because he was talking and the next generation was listening. He was pointing them to the glory of Jesus, the good news of the Gospel, anchored in the truth of God’s word.”
Transcript
Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors
GLENN: All right. Josh, welcome to the program. How are you, Pastor?
JOSH: I'm very good. How are you, Glenn?
GLENN: I'm good. I'm good. It's good to talk to you, my friend. And thank you for the kind note this week. I really appreciate all you do.
JOSH: I've been thinking about you, praying for you, and thankful for your voice right now, bro.
GLENN: Feel the same way about you.
I want to talk about what's happening with our churches. But I want to talk about a couple of definitions first. What is the definition of a martyr?
Where do we get that word? What does it come from?
JOSH: So "martyr" is anchored in the original Greek word that means "witness." Like someone who gave clear witness to something.
So when we use the word "martyr," like to a Christian martyr, it's someone who was faithful in their clear and uncompromising witness and explanation of the gospel, and more specifically, Jesus Christ.
GLENN: But you could also make that as a witness of the truth of the American principles. Could you not?
JOSH: Absolutely. Absolutely.
GLENN: Because I think Charlie Kirk was a witness of both -- and I've got to tell you. I told Erika, the other day, when I saw her.
It was hard for me to say this to her. I couldn't imagine a better way to go out, then the way Charlie did.
And I don't mean the way they killed him.
I mean, by witnessing. Having the words coming out of your mouth, just three sentences before witnessing Jesus Christ. And then witnessing to the truth, to a group of people that were starving for it.
And then to be taken out. I mean, if that's not a swift elevator or escalator ride, right up to the top. I don't know what is.
JOSH: Oh, it's remarkable.
And, I mean, we were sitting there and reflecting on this. I'm pretty sure, you haven't slept for days.
You just -- it's all you can think about.
GLENN: Yeah.
JOSH: And the irony. The poeticness -- however you want to say it, the nature of it. He wasn't killed in a car accident. He wasn't attacked.
He was -- he was killed doing the thing he had been doing for 12 years.
GLENN: Witnessing.
JOSH: And that he loved to do.
In spite of the same, in spite of all the responsibilities, sitting in a chair, under a tent with a cheap microphone, talking to anyone who would want to come and listen about the ideas that -- and for Charlie, I heard him say, so many times. He loved America. He loved our nation.
And he loved what made it great, and what made it great, and this is what made him, I think, so different from other people. It's the ability to connect the dots between the greatness of America and the glory of Jesus.
In that, the American ideas that the people connect with around the world, work anywhere around the world. Because they're connected to the timeless truth of the gospel. I mean, Charlie's political theory was anchored in Biblical theology.
GLENN: I know.
JOSH: And he like no one I have ever met, had the ability to connect those dots in all of life. And so as I've been talking to guys, they didn't kill Charlie because he was a big personality.
They didn't kill Charlie because he was merely a big conservative voice. They killed Charlie Kirk because he was talking, and the next generation was listening.
He was pointing them to the glory of Jesus. The goodness of the gospel. Anchored in the truth of God's word.
And that's why they had to kill him. So he is absolutely in every sense, I believe, a Christian martyr.
And mainly -- the first public figure, Christian martyr on American soil.
GLENN: Joseph Smith. I know we disagree on theology and something. But I would to have throw in. Because I thought about this. Joseph Smith and Charlie Kirk are probably the only Christian martyrs in American history.
JOSH: Yep. Because we have Christian martyrs. In like Jim Elliot, you know, those kinds of.
GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JOSH: But on American soil, at an American university, captured by 3,000 cell phones from every possible angle, this one was just different.
GLENN: Yes. Yeah, it was. It was.
And it -- you know, I think if Charlie would have been asked, the night before, hey. Listen, Charlie. Tomorrow, you have a choice.
You can live a little while longer, and you can continue to do these things. Or tomorrow, you could be taken out, while testifying, and millions of people will be affected by your testimony of Christ.
I -- I'll -- from what I know of Charlie, and I knew him fairly well, there's not a question.
He would have said, oh, the second one. Right now. Let's do it.
JOSH: That's right. That's right. And I think people know that, Glenn. And that's what makes the story so compelling. This wasn't like a shock or surprise. Even though, it was horrific. He had been getting death threats for years. And, you know, the Bible says, count the cost, right?
He is one that counted the cost. And the question was, do I want to take the road of safety, and act like cowardice, or walk the road of danger as an act of faith?
And often, a counterpart of cowardice is courage. The counterpart of -- of cowardice is faith. And Charlie has faith in the risen Christ, which gave him courage -- I mean, you watched that video of him walking up to the chair at Utah. It's haunting.
You're like, turn around. Don't go out there. Someone stop. Why isn't there bulletproof glass?
And, Glenn, he could have been wearing a kit. He could have been behind bullet -- he didn't want to. He wanted to stay accessible to the people. And demonstrate a measure of courage that, quite frankly, many of us pastors sometimes lack. And it was a stunning display of courage that I think we're now seeing a ripple cross the country.
GLENN: So what is happening in our churches?
Josh, what is happening in our churches? I was lucky enough to attend one of my services in my faith, in a town where the bishop got up, and he spoke boldly about Charlie Kirk, and what was happening.
And I don't know how many churches, even in my own faith, I don't know how many awards or churches that actually spoke about Charlie Kirk. And that is -- was so important to me.
Is that happening, in most churches, or are they dropping the ball again?
JOSH: Well, actually, I can't speak for every church out there. So I'm on these text threads with over 60 pastors. And so, you know, across the country, in Florida, New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, Texas, California, red states, blue states.
Big churches, small churches, some of the biggest churches in the country, down to ten-month-old baby church plants, and so we're all talking.
And Wednesday, it happens. You're like, my gosh, what's happened?
And Thursday, Friday, you're processing, and grieving. And it's just too much to take in.
And by Friday, it feels like, this thing feels different.
Something is moving here, stirring here. Not only because of how he was killed.
But because of who he was and how he lived. All of a sudden, you can't go on the internet with just clip after clip after clip.
And I don't think even Charlie knew how big a deal he was.
GLENN: He didn't.
JOSH: I mean, bro, from missing man formations in the Blue Angels to the Dallas Cowboys to the New York Yankees, to Coldplay, to the Polish Parliament.
GLENN: I know. He had no idea.
JOSH: You're watching this. You're like, what the in the world is happening? You know, 250,000 people is reported by CNN in London, turned out to be 3 million. It's like, this is wild.
And so Saturday, I filmed this quick video. I was like, hey, pastors, if you're out there, I think there's a tidal wave coming. And the tidal wave is in the form of people who are hurting and are hungry.
And they're going to show up at your church. And it's our job to open the Bible and don't miss the moment. And then we all went into Sunday. Going, what is going to happen?
And this is why I texted you yesterday. This is what I want the American people to hear. Because in moments of tragedy like this, we're instantly looking for meaning. Like, why is this happening?
Why could this have been allowed by a good and loving God? And we know we have problems in the word of God, that what faith intends for evil, God intends to use for good.
And all of us, including me myself, were probably going, yeah, not this kind.
You know what I mean?
STU: Oh, I'm seeing it. I'm seeing it happen.
PAT: Yeah. There's no way -- and so Saturday, we're all like, how can this -- Sunday, we get to church, and I walk in. And I'm like, what in the world is happening?
And this is what I want to tell you. What I want the American people to hear. Universally, across-the-board. With every pastor I know. And who I'm talking to.
Easter level, record attendance on a random Sunday in September.
I mean, I'm talking to churches are at 30 percent, 40 percent.
Some guy is texting me. 70 percent. 80 percent, and not even eastern-level attendance.
Eastern-level response to the goodness of the Gospel. You know, Charlie used to get up. And he was really famous for saying, the Gospel is in four words, Jesus took my place.
The Gospel in three words, him for me. The Gospel in two words, substitution fulfillment. The gospel in one word: Grace. What is grace?
It's not getting what you deserve, getting what you don't deserve. What is (inaudible) for Christ? In Christ, you can have grace by eternal life. Thanks you so much. And he dropped the mic and walked off.
I think Charlie's life and death has awakened, again, in this moment, a spiritual hunger.
I've never seen at levels across-the-board. So I wanted the American people to hear, that when Jesus says, unless a grain of wheat goes into the ground and dies, it cannot produce more seeds. Charlie's life went into the ground, like that grain of wheat. It died.
And it's producing millions of seeds. And this isn't just pastor's hyperbole. Preacher hyperbole. This is reality. We are seeing not just a Sunday revival.
I believe we're moving into a season of revival. And it's staggering. It's a stunning thing to behold.
GLENN: So I was thinking the other day, that our work has got to be -- all of us has to be, get out into the fields, the harvest is ripe.
But one of the things -- one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, I have to grow my own alfalfa. And when I say, I grow it, I have people who grow it for me.
SALENA: Other people grow it.
GLENN: Yeah. Right. Other people grow it for my cows.
But I know the planting and everything else. But the harvest comes in three or four times a summer. You have to go out and just cut the field. And then grow some more. And then cut the field.
This is the first cutting, if you will. The harvest is right. But more is coming after this.
Do bad things have to come, each time, before the harvest?
JASON: That's a really good question. You know, C.S. Lewis said, "Pain is God's megaphone to a dead world." And sometimes it takes something painful in our personal life, or out in the public square, that causes us to reflect on our life.
I mean, here's why this is landing on people: Have you asked yourself, what makes this different?
GLENN: Yes.
JOSH: And not just Democrats or mercenary, but people die every day. Right?
And it's horrible. And it's tragic. And it's part of the fall. And it's terrible.
But this has stopped and shocked the world. And it's like, what is different?
And I think, Glenn, one of the things that has made a difference. Well, there's lots of Texas. And there's, of course, the sovereign hand of God, I believe.
But in Charlie, we saw a champion. Our champion. He was a gladiator. He would go into places that none of us would want to go. And do what we wish we could say.
It's like, that guy is on our team! Yeah, that's exciting. And then he was taken off the field, in a devastating injury.
And we're all asking ourself, is the team still going to win? The second thing that makes it personal, I think, all of us saw ourselves in Charlie. He was a normal guy.
He could connect to the normal -- he was saying -- we have people saying, including our former president. That Charlie's views were extreme. He was an extremist. You know what his views were?
You should read the Bible, obey the Bible, and teach people about the Bible. You should get married, have kids, hold down a job, and be a good member of society.
That is now counted as extreme, and all of us are listening this and watching this and going, wait a minute, that's what I believe. That's how I live.
I'm just a boring Christian that's married to one woman. Got a couple kids. And working hard in my community. Do they all feel that way about me.
It's carrying something different in it.
It's caused something to shift. To your question, does something valid have to happen for there to be a harvest? Well, it is, it is the cycle of life.
Death is a prerequisite for the resurrection. It's true with a grain of wheat that goes into the ground. And it's true, I think of how God works in the heavenly realm. And so this one tragic event, I believe, is going to roll out, not just for a few days. Not just for a few weeks.
I believe for decades.
Because, look at the example.
I got a call -- keep coming from me on Monday. Gosh, I just had to tell you. I've been wanting to reach out to some of my friends in high school that don't know Jesus. And I'm just not sure how to do it. After Charlie's assassination, I thought, my gosh, why am I wasting time? So I texted ten of my old high school buddies. These are secular, pagan, atheistic, non-churchgoing college freshmen.
I texted ten of them. And they're all away at school. All ten came to church with me on Sunday.
GLENN: Wow. Josh, hang on. 60 seconds. Hang on. Hang on just a second. Because I want to continue in just a second.
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GLENN: Pastor Josh McPherson, his website is GraceCityChurch.com on Instagram. @PastorJoshMcPherson.
Josh, tell me the difference between a revival and the awakening. Is there?
JOSH: Well, I think when I think of what a rifle is. We see examples in history. And I see examples in church.
I think most fundamentally, if you really define rival, it is -- it's an unexplainable, supernaturally born increase in spiritual hunger, desire, and intensity.
And so when I think about what's happening now, obviously, it's probably premature to go, "We're in a revival."
STU: Yes.
PAT: But I'm suspicious, that we'll look back on this moment in history.
And here's the thing, the revivals aren't sustainable. They don't last for hundreds and hundreds of years.
They're moments this time. Where God through his grace, opens a portal and see people are -- their eyes are opened.
Because most people who don't -- aren't interested in God, aren't working throughout their day, thinking about eternal judgment and eternity and the things of God. They're just kind of busy with Netflix and life, right?
Mercy of God. When he opens people's eyes to actually care about those things that actually matter. Like eternity. Like sin. Like the grace. Like the gospel.
And so right now, what we're seeing, and this is what I want America to hear.
I am hearing and seeing, universally testified across-the-board from every pastor I know, increased levels of spiritual hunger, intensity, and curiosity in ways that I have never seen it. So it makes me think, I wonder if we're on the brink of a revival. And it would make sense to me, Glenn.
Because the palmist said, precious is the death of his face in the eyes of God. And I think Charlie was loved by the father.
And he was like, you know what, Charlie was faithful in life. And faithful in death. I'm going to honor his life and death.
And this is crazy. God is accomplishing more in days, than Charlie Kirk accomplished in a lifetime with his mission.
GLENN: Yeah. I know.