GLENNMarch 09, 2017

4 Steps to Break Down Walls From a Former Westboro Baptist Church Member

Megan Phelps-Roper, who grew up indoctrinated with hatred in the Westboro Baptist Church, left the church in 2012 after what can only be described as an awakening.

"She left the church a while ago, and recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world," Co-host Stu Burguiere said Thursday on The Glenn Beck Program.

Interestingly, Phelps-Roper's conversion began in the hateful universe of social media, where she encountered a pattern that repeated during her 144-character conversations on Twitter.

Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

Concerned with the current state of division in the country, Phelps-Roger has identified four steps on how to approach people with different ideas, especially on social media platforms:

1. Don't assume bad intent

2. Ask honest questions

3. Stay calm

4. Make the argument, explain

"If you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. Unfortunately, most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop, but we're all being led to believe that nothing will ever change with the other side," Glenn said. "That's a lie, and she's proof positive of that lie."

Listen to this segment from The Glenn Beck Program:

GLENN: I want to get to the media bias and American kids. Can they spot fake news stories? Can they spot bias? We'll give that to you here in just a second.

STU: So Megan Phelps-Roper. She was in the Westboro Baptist Church. So Phelps is the name.

GLENN: Right.

STU: Fred Phelps was the head guy.

GLENN: Is she -- is she a child of?

STU: No, I think she's married.

GLENN: Okay. So she was a child of Fred?

STU: Yeah. She grew up in -- or, it might be grandchild of Fred. Fred is -- I could be --

GLENN: Have we lost him?

STU: He's very old. I don't know if we lost him. I don't keep up with every iteration of what goes on in the Westboro Baptist Church. But I do find it a fascinating topic, in that it's -- they're just so crazy. And to see -- if you don't know who they are, they're the people that go and protest military funerals. They say God hates Jews and gays.

GLENN: All kinds of stuff. Really bad.

STU: You know, they're the worst part of every news story, basically.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: They come out -- gosh, this is a tragedy. Now it's worse. They're able to do it every single time.

GLENN: Right. Right. Right.

STU: So she grew up -- and, you know, I know we had someone who left the Westboro Baptist Church a long time ago. And I can't remember if it was her or if it was someone else because a couple people have left. But almost everybody at the Westboro Baptist Church is from the Phelps family. It's like 80 percent Phelps family members.

GLENN: Boy.

STU: So she left the church a while ago. And recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world. Now, you might not want to be associated with someone who is in the Westboro Baptist Church --

GLENN: But she's out of the Westboro Baptist Church.

STU: She's out --

GLENN: She's out and she's talking about why she left. And for everybody who says, "Well, you don't -- the left won't listen." Let's listen to how the woman -- do you think the left is less extreme than the Westboro Baptist Church?

STU: If you could communicate with someone like that and break down those walls, you could do it with anybody.

GLENN: And listen to what she said. How it was done. Listen to this.

MEGAN: In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter. Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

How had the other come to such outrageous conclusions about the world?

Sometimes the conversation even bled into real life. People I had sparred with on Twitter would come out to the picket line to see me when I protested in their city.

A man named David was one such person. He ran a blog called Jewlicious. And after several months of heated, but friendly arguments online, he came out to see me at a picket in New Orleans. He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert from Jerusalem, where he lives. And I brought him kosher chocolate and held a "God hates Jews" sign. There was no confusion about our positions, but the line between friend and foe was becoming blurred. And it changed the way we spoke to one another. It took time, but eventually these conversations planted seeds of doubt in me.

GLENN: Now, imagine how many Jewish friends this guy had who said, what, are you selling out? Don't you know she's using you? Don't you know, you're being pulled in? You're a sellout. You've got to stand against.

How many people she had in her life saying the same thing. But they both were being civil to each other. And -- and probably everyone in their life said, "It's not going to change anything." And look what happened. Do you have another cut from her?

PAT: Yeah.

STU: If you can win over the Westboro Baptist Church -- and she went on later. Something you said a million times. She said, the conversations always started, and neither of us changed our positions.

GLENN: Yep.

STU: Neither of us changed our principles. It wasn't -- it was just listening. You don't have to change your ideas. It was listening and communicating like your -- your friend.

GLENN: And then start talking about families and things you have in common.

STU: Yeah. And it helped, I mean, win over a Westboro Baptist Church member. And to the extent of how crazy that would be -- because you think of these people, I mean, they're obviously crazy.

GLENN: I mean, God hates Jews. God hates gays. I mean, you can't think of people who are more off their rocker than this --

PAT: She goes into that.

STU: Yeah. And to talk about how indoctrinated she was. She talks at the very beginning of this that the first protest she went to, she was five years old, protesting gays somewhere. Holding a sign she couldn't even read.

PAT: Uh-huh.

GLENN: Wow.

STU: That's how deeply she was in this. And she goes through this entire process. And through Twitter -- we think of all these good people being turned bad through Twitter. Here's someone who went through Twitter and turned her life from pure evil to something else.

MEGAN: My friends on Twitter took the time to understand Westboro's doctrines. And in doing so, they were able to find inconsistencies I had missed my entire life. Why did we advocate the death penalty for gays when Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? How could we claim to love our neighbor, while at the same time praying for God to destroy them?

The truth is that the care shown to me by these strangers on the internet was itself a contradiction. It was growing evidence that people on the other side were not the demons I had been led to believe.

These realizations were life-altering. Once I saw that we were not the ultimate arbiters of devine truth, but flawed human beings, I couldn't pretend otherwise. I couldn't justify our actions, especially our cruel practice of protesting funerals and celebrating human tragedy.

GLENN: Okay. Stop here for a second. Let's just put this together. Both sides have this problem. Both sides in one way or another is the Westboro Baptist Church. Both left and right. We have extremists on both sides.

But let's just think of -- for this audience, let's just think of the right -- or, the left thinks they're the arbiter of everything that is true. They're the -- we're not science deniers. We're not that way. You're the science denier.

Well, you aren't educated. We are educated. We have all the universities. They believe that everything intellectually is on their side. Right? So they're morally superior. They don't see the -- the disconnect between saying, let's march for women and yesterday, while this was going on, they were advocating -- the left was advocating and going against the CDC, saying, women are protesting the CDC because you men can't tell us not to drink during our pregnancy.

Well, I agree that we can't tell you what to do. That's your decision. But that doesn't seem like something you later in life will be proud of standing and marching for.

It doesn't seem logical, to me, that when all is said and done, you'll be proud that you marched for abortion for the killing of children. That at some point in your life, you, or most, I believe, will come to the determination that, you know, that is a child. Because there's no way. Because of science. It's going to force you. I'm not the science denier. You're the one that says, I don't want a scan. I don't want an ultrasound to happen. And give the women a chance to say, oh, my gosh, it is a child. If they have that scan and they say, I don't care. Well, that's a different subject.

But you have to admit that that is a child; otherwise, why would you say no to ultrasounds?

Which one of us is in this bubble? Now, I'm only using this side because both sides are in a bubble. But anybody who says that they cannot reach the left, you're -- listen to what she just said. It was by kindness on the internet, first. Kindness of not slamming back.

Because the left does see the right as a monster, just like many on the right see the left as a monster. They're not.

We're not. We disagree on things. And we ratchet it up because we're screaming at each other. But if we'll just start talking -- and better yet, listening. Listening first. To one another. You will find what I have found, wow, we have a ton in common.

Now, it's not going to change everything overnight. People say to me all the time, yeah, well, who have you changed? Well, nobody. But I will tell you, look how many people from the left have been on this show. Just two days ago, we had somebody on the left who said, you know what, I changed my mind. I'm actually not on the left. I'm on the right. And I was die-hard on the left. And now I've changed. So while I haven't personally done it, I think it is happening.

And if you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. And unfortunately most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop. But we're all being led to be convince that had nothing will ever change with the other side.

And so it's of no use. That's a lie. And she's proof positive of that lie. At least I think so.

STU: At the most extreme level. If this isn't a proof of concept, I don't know what is.

[break]

GLENN: Craziest elections, our series continues in just a few minutes. Also, we want to talk to you a little bit about Obamacare. And Stu wants to give us the four steps that this woman from the Westboro Baptist Church said got me out of the church.

STU: Yeah, she identified these. Which I thought were interesting. One, don't assume bad intent. And that's something I like to use on social networks. Because it makes your -- it just makes your life better. You know, if you're constantly getting in fights with people, it's just annoying. And I've -- because people will insult you. Like I insult Jeffy all the time, and he knows it comes from a good place.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: But that's how I look at everybody who calls me Hitler on the internet.

PAT: They mean it in a nice way?

STU: They mean it in a joking way. And I just treat it that way. And I don't care. It makes me feel better.

GLENN: You know what, a lot of times I'll see people online. They'll say something like, you know, you're so mean to Glenn. And blah, blah. You know, the one defender. Blah, blah, blah. And they'll be like, no, I'm a big fan of the show. I was joking.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And so if you don't assume bad intent, it saves you a lot of angst.

STU: Yeah. And it also means you never get pissed off at the internet.

GLENN: Yes.

STU: So many people get obsessed in these little battles. They never bother me. I never care what you say about me. If you go with that principle, just don't assume it's bad. All these interactions wind up being better. And many times, by the way, you turn people around. There's people who are fans of the show that didn't like some things we said. They came out, they call us all sorts of names. If you respond nicely, typically they'll just turn around --

PAT: Yeah. I'm having a hard time finding the rainbow in all of that, during the election. When they were saying things like eat crap and die, I didn't think that was necessarily good-natured.

GLENN: But I will tell you -- I gave up. It was overwhelming at the time. But I will tell you, a lot of people will say, you know what, you're right. I'm sorry. I flew off the handle. I don't agree with you. But I appreciate it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: Step two. Ask questions. So that's a great thing to do.

PAT: Even the very existence of God. For if there be a God, he must surely rather --

GLENN: Shut up.

STU: But I mean, asking questions is important. And honest ones. Right? It's not just like trying to come up with a point and just saying what you believe and pushing other people. And then asking questions that aren't honest.

GLENN: Don't ask a question that you know the answer too.

PAT: Just trying to set people up.

GLENN: And you're just trying to trap people into it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: This one is very difficult for a lot of people. But if you do the other two, you can do this one, which is stay calm.

You know, the person who you're going up against in an argument, especially from the other side are going to say terrible things about it, why let it bother you? That's you. That's not them. That's you letting it bother you. You're making the choice to allow it to bother you. If you stay calm and don't let it bother you, you're able to kind of reason your way through the argument.

PAT: How amazing is it that this is coming from a Phelps -- the granddaughter of Fred Phelps, the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. This is astounding.

STU: Yeah, because it worked on her to get her out.

PAT: That is really amazing. She and her sister both got out.

STU: Yeah. It might have been her sister --

PAT: It might have been her sister Grace we talked to. I think so.

STU: We should see if she'll come on too. Because it's great.

And the last one is make the argument. Which that one didn't strike me as obvious when I was listening to that list. But if you're in a battle with someone on the left or you're in a battle with someone who is nuts and you're trying to actually persuade them, a lot of times I think because we believe, for example, low taxes are the right thing to do or abortion is wrong or whatever the belief is, it's so apparent to us, we treat it as if it's doctrine to everybody. And we don't bother to walk people through the step by step argument of how you actually get there. So many people have -- they start at their arrival point. I'm young. I'm in college. I'm a liberal. I'm a leftist, I love abortion.

PAT: Uh-huh.

STU: And the process very well may not have ever happened, where they made that decision organically. Where they walked through the steps in their head.

GLENN: You know, I got to get to the survey. The survey shows that most people -- and this includes teens -- and I will narrow it down to teens. But most people get their money from a friend, or I blog. A commentator of some sort. They haven't done the thinking. They get the opinion from someone else who may or may not have done all of the thinking themselves.

STU: Take the time to actually make the argument when you're talking to someone. Calmly. Don't assume their bad intent. You follow those few steps -- you're not going to win everybody over, nor should you care --

GLENN: Isn't it interesting, you're on the bandwagon.

PAT: I've been on the band freaking wagon. I brought these clips to the show.

GLENN: Listen to him now.

STU: Stay calm! That's all I'm saying. Stay calm!

GLENN: I'm assuming bad intent.

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST

Jeffrey Epstein's SHOCKING connections to intelligence agencies | The Glenn Beck Podcast REPLAY

Journalist Whitney Webb has worked to uncover some of the most dangerous stories of our lifetime, and she joins Glenn to reveal just how eye-opening it’s been. Her new two-volume book, “One Nation Under Blackmail: The Sordid Union Between Intelligence and Crime that Gave Rise to Jeffrey Epstein,” examines Epstein’s elaborate network of corruption and power, from Bill Clinton to Ghislaine Maxwell and many more. Her research into transhumanism has given her a terrifying perspective on the World Economic Forum and tech elites, including Elon Musk. And she tells Glenn the dark truth about Biden’s push for electric vehicles that she noticed while living in Chile.

Watch Glenn Beck's FULL Interview with Whitney Webb HERE

RADIO

$13.8 TRILLION in interest ALONE: Can America survive this debt bomb?

The United States is facing possibly the largest debt crisis in our history as our national debt rises faster and faster. Glenn Beck warns: is our bankruptcy inevitable? Plus, Glenn and Stu discuss the recent protest during an ICE raid on a farm in California.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Now, here's another thing. And I will hit this once.

Because it's a little -- it's a little overwhelming.

But I just think you should know it.

Since the dead ceiling was raised on July 3rd. July 3rd.

The US debt is up $410 billion.

Just in the first two days.

Let me say that again.

We raised the debt ceiling. And the US debt goes up 410 billion, almost half of a trillion dollars in two days!

Now, this comes after the US Treasury ended extraordinary measures, raising the debt ceiling by 5 trillion.

We are in the midst of the US' largest crisis.

Largest one ever. Now, listen to this.

After hitting the debt limit of $36.1 trillion in January of 2025, Treasury began extraordinary measures to conserve cash. Last week, when Trump's big, beautiful bill was signed into law. The debt ceiling from 36.1 to $41.1 trillion. And what happened?

In two days, up 410 billion. Raised due to a technical process.

Now, Stu, I don't want to get all technical here. But I think that -- that the debt ceiling going up, and then us spending an additional $410 billion. I think that technical process. And, again, if I'm too wonky, maybe you can explain it, is out of control politicians that are just spending too much.

But maybe that's just me. Is that too technical. Is that too wonky, to get to?

STU: Yeah. You're in nerd world with that one, Glenn. People aren't going to understand it.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah.

So they were just -- they were just doing what you do, when you don't have the money. They were just moving bills around. And paying what they absolutely had to. Until the debt ceiling was raised.

And then when they did, they were like woo. Because we were completely out of money.

Now we can print some more. Now we're free to borrow a record 41.1 trillion dollars in debt.

Now, here's the part that kind of opens your eyes. To put this into perspective, at the start of 2020, the US had $23.2 trillion in at the time. In 2020, $23.2 trillion.

Where are we now?

Well, we just moved that debt ceiling up to 41 trillion, because we're at $36.1 trillion.

With the new limit, we will mark $17.9 trillion increase, since 2020. That's a 77 percent increase in our debt. Have you thought of it this way?

At our current pace, we will reach the new debt ceiling much sooner than expected.

The treasury posted a 316 billion-dollar deficit in May. That's the third largest in record.

For the first eight months of 2025, the budget gap hit $1.3 trillion. The third largest in history.

Over the last 12 months. The US borrowed 1.9 trillion.

Or 158 billion, every month.

That is half -- this is half of the May levels.

But let's take 158 billion to be conserve.

US current debt stands at 36.6.

We are 4.5 trillion below the limit now.

At our current pace, it will take us 28 months, to hit that limit.

STU: Jeez.

GLENN: In fact, the debt ceiling crisis. It looks like it will hit us now, every two years. The debt ceiling is hit faster than it can be moved. From June 2023 and October 2021, we're the last debt ceiling crisis. The US budget deficit has averaged 9 percent of GDP over the last five years.

But over the last 12 months, the budget gap has hit 7 percent of GDP. That is higher than during 2001, or any of the 1980 recessions.

We now spend 7.1 trillion dollars, 24 percent of our GDP. We have a spending problem.
That's our problem. We are issuing so much debt now, bond prices are falling. And yields are rising. What does that mean? It means, we're charging less, and we're paying out more in interest. That's not going to help us!

The US spent a record of $1.2 trillion on interest expense alone.

That's more than the total spending on defense. Medicaid, and the veterans program.

At our current pace, we're set to see US cost exceed $2 trillion within a matter of years!

Over the next ten years, the US is projected to pay $13.8 trillion just in interest.

For interest alone. This is not taxpayers. This is per person in the United States.

For interest alone, we are now on the hook for $40,500 per person, just for the interest!

This is four times Social Security cash deficit in the next ten years.

Five times the cost of 403 US weather and climate disasters. Since 1980.

403, weather and climate disasters.

It's the cost of 403 of those! Sorry.

It's the -- it's five times the cost of those, since 1980! I just wanted to -- I mean, just want to start there. Wake up to your situation.

People are arguing about all of the wrong things right now, and they are -- we think we are skating. And we think that this can last forever. It's not going to last forever, and then you add things on top of this.

Like, what is happening with -- with ICE?

I don't know if you saw the video of the protesters. Some protester that was firing some sort of a weapon, at a federal agent during the ICE raid at a farm in California. Let me play this. Cut two, please. This is the raid --

VOICE: Take a look at this video right here. It appears a protestor fired some kind of gun at federal agents. This happened this afternoon.

It was a really chaotic scene at the time.
A lot of smoking was being launched at the protesters. Again, it appears that a protestor fired back with that weapon.

It looks like he fired at least a couple of times. We've not heard about any agents being hurt.

STU: Hmm.

GLENN: So we are entering a very violent. Very, very violent time. First of all, let me talk about this particular raid. This was at a legal pot farm!

Okay. I think we can probably in the past, just done an hour on that. You know, oh, it's a legal pot farm.

Okay. Forget about that. That's not a problem apparently anymore.

It's being tended, this legal pot farm is being tended by illegals. That are coming across the border.

Well, we don't want to hurt our farming community.

I don't think of our farming community, as pot farms. But maybe that's just me.

Again, why get -- why get down in those details?

STU: Yeah. Glenn, this is just an existential question here.

But is it a legal pot farm, if the workers are illegal?

GLENN: Stu. Stu, again, that would be hour two of any past show that we have ever done together.

STU: Okay. All right.

GLENN: All right. So they go in, and they're trying to bust the illegals.

All right. What happens? Well, there starts to be protests. These protests come.

They start firing at ICE.

ICE has to put tear gas down.

Now the illegals are running to save themselves.

But who is running amongst this crowd?

Apparently, a bunch of children.

Now, I suppose those legal pot farms are providing a good education for those kids.

You know, probably has a pot farm day care center for those kids. So they can be out of the fields. And of course not working for their parents. Because that would be underage labor. You wouldn't want that to happen in America.

You know, all these people that have these bleeding hearts. Like, oh, this is just so wrong.

You're not even thinking anymore.

You're not even thinking.

You just see a video where you have kids running with their parents. Children running from the fields of this pot farm.

What were they doing there?

Certainly, that wasn't underage labor, was that?

Because you would be against that.

Wouldn't you?

Or are you?

Or are you only against that, if it's white children?

I'm not sure. I'm confused.

So you have the underage children. And these bleeding hearts, who are saying, we have to let these people go.

We have to let them just do what they do!

Really? You mean work in the shadows?

You mean engage in possible child labor? Okay. Possibly making, what?

A dollar an hour. Yeah. No, no, no. That's really, really, really good.

Then let's just let these protesters, and they're not protesters.

They are terrorists now.

We just let these terrorists get away with firing guns at our -- at our ICE agents. Things are changing in America. Let's just look at the violence, just in the last couple of weeks.

You have the July 4th ICE ambush, which is what?

ICE 25 miles outside of the city of Dallas. They have a detention center.

A coordinated well-planned attack.

Guy is covered in black. You know, in -- in military gear. They come and they start shooting fireworks at the detention center. Then a few of them break off, and they start spray painting the cars. Which brings unarmed ICE agents out of the building, to try to stop them from defacing the -- the cars.

They're unarmed. Well, this group has snipers in the woods. Hiding in the woods.

As soon as those unarmed agents come out, they start shooting them. Shot one of them in the neck. Thank God, he's still alive. What do you call that?

What do you call that? A Revolutionary War. Terrorism. It's certainly not a peaceful protest. Neither was it yesterday.

And, meanwhile, we have Congressmen who are actually trying to pass a bill in Congress right now, saying that the ICE members can't wear masks.

Well, you know what, when your bad guys stop wearing masks. When your people who are on the -- on the college campuses stop wearing masks, maybe we can live in a community and live in a society where our police officers don't have to wear masks.

Don't give me this. That's gets appear zero stuff.

By the way, the gestapo never wore masks.

They didn't care.

This is the kind of stuff that you see in the third world countries.

You mean like riots on the streets?

Yeah. It's stuff you see in third world countries. And you're dragging us into a third world country.

And, you know what, it's just -- it's -- it's time!

It's time. It's just time to say, enough is enough. And I'm not saying take extraordinary measures.

I'm saying, can our US government, our FBI, our department of justice stop acting like every Bond villain I've ever seen.

And here's what I mean by that. It's like you take these guys off the street, and then you strap them on to a table. And you say, the laser is going to cut your head in half.

No. It's not going to. We all know it's not going to.

Can we stop acting like Bond villains? Can we actually take care of the problem?

Actually arrest these people. Try them. And put them in jail.

We need to start setting a few examples. Otherwise, this is going to ton spiral out of control.

RADIO

Obama's CIA chief behind Steele dossier deception – exposed!

The FBI has opened a criminal investigation against former CIA Director John Brennan. But will Americans finally see justice for his alleged crimes and cover-ups? Or will the Deep State protect him? Former Department of Defense intelligence analyst Jason Buttrill joins Glenn Beck to give his prediction.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Let's bring in Jason Buttrill who is our chief researcher on the program.

You know, I'm reading a lot about John Brennan, and, you know, I think everybody knows he's a bad guy.

Well, everybody, but MSNBC and CNN.

They know he's a bad guy. But, you know, Jason, as I was starting to really refresh my memory. And look into Brennan, as we're -- it looks like maybe the Department of Justice is going to take him on.

And maybe prosecute him for some pretty bad perjury. I started looking into him, and I didn't realize. I had completely forgotten.

He was the guy who was the main guy that was pushing for torture, during the war.

I mean, he couldn't torture enough people.
And then he actually had a little group that would meet with the president, and they would develop the kill list. Do you remember, Stu?

Talking about the kill list, that Obama was doing? You know, every week. They developed a kill list. And everybody was like, what do you mean a kill list? Who is on the kill list?

It was John Brennan who was doing all of that stuff. He's a really, really dark dude. And, you know, hopefully we'll actually send him to jail for the things that he allegedly has done, besides, you know, develop the kill list. Jason, welcome to the program.

JASON: Hey, thanks, Glenn. I don't -- you know, it depends on -- I don't know. John Brennan has been one of the most slippery, I don't know how to describe him.

Whether it's like Bond villains. Or actually maybe it's more accurate to kill him like a Batman villain.

You remember like in Batman. You know if like the Joker is connected and remains in that comment or cartoon, or if it's the Penguin.

You know at the end of the comic, they're going to get away.

You will just see them in a slide. You know, all of a sudden in page where they slip away. They have to live again. You know, to the villain in another comic book.

GLENN: Oh, I know.

Yeah, I know.

And we are playing the role of a -- of a -- of a Bond villain as well, when it comes to justice.

Our DOJ is like, oh. And we have sharks that are going to eat you.

We have strapped you to this table. But they are going to start with your shoestrings. And then, we will leave. But before you know it, you will be dead in the belly of a shark. And they're not going to -- it's not going to kill them.

Just shoot them in the head. What are you doing?

Stop with the shark thing. That's what our DOJ is like. They just have these guys get away with murder.

JASON: Yeah. As you point out, with Brennan, it goes way, way back.

He was -- as you outlined. He was one of the guys that were right at the center of the enhanced interrogation, or torture controversy.

He -- he always said, hey, I was not in the enhanced interrogation techniques, air quoted, program.

But he was one of the guys, that was defending transferring some of the suspects, the country, where, you know, the rules are a lot less, you know, strict than they are here in the United States.

Where you can employ some of these.

Yeah. It goes beyond that.

He actually withdrew his name. You know, from being in the BCI director because of this.

But like any fat man villain or Bond villain, if he decides to run again, and he's confirmed by a massive amount. He just keeps on slipping through.

GLENN: Well, how does he get -- let me ask you: How do you think he gets this power?
Because he just keeps slipping through.

And, you know, if I remember right, it was Dianne Feinstein that -- that actually came at him, and said, you and the CIA are spying on the committee in -- in the Senate.

And they were investigating the torture, or enhanced interrogation. And he was knee-deep. Maybe neck-deep in that. And he said, we're not spying -- the CIA would never do that.

It's just unthinkable. Well, it turns out, yes. They were spying.

And then he never -- they never pushed for any kind of penalty on him.

He said, well, I'm going to find out, who did this.

And then they will pay.

Nobody paid. Nobody. Nothing. Does he have stuff on -- on members of the Senate and the House? Is that what -- is that what's happening here? How does he keep getting away with this?

Understanding John Brennan, in my opinion is understanding how the Deep State operates.

That example that you just put out there, with spying on the intelligence committee.

Deny. Deny. Deny.

Later it comes out, Glenn. That five CIA employees. Five, improperly accessed.

Five!

And then finally after a while. Like months later. He's apologizing to the Senate intelligence committee.

You know, all, but admitting this happened.

But no resignations.

No prosecutions. This goes on and on and on.

STU: Hang on.

And then on that same case, five years later, he writes his -- you know, his biography.

And he talks about how none of that happened.

So he admits it.

First, he denies it.

Then he's caught. Then he admits it.

He says, I will take care of it.

Nothing happens. Time goes by.

And then he writes a book. And then he goes, all of that. None of that happened.

That was all wrong. This guy is just --

JASON: Yeah. It really is.

And it's the same with the Steele dossier.

You know, did think it in front of Congress.

And then later, now we're coming out. Now we can see that he totally -- it appears like he was just completely lying.

Now we're trying to figure out what about he told John Durham. Because maybe they can get him for saying the same statements to John Durham. If they can, then maybe we can go after him.

But I really don't know.

I really don't know if the audience wants to hear this right now.

I don't know if it will make a difference.

This is how the Deep State operates.

To understand it, and understand John Brennan.

You understand, the executives don't control Deep State apparatuses. That's not how it works.

You have multiple people, and people that were under John Brennan and the CIA, are still there. They're still there.

The Deep State controls the Deep State apparatus, not the executive. Not Congress.

None of them. It is the shady individuals that continue to get away with things. We catch them in lies that never really matters.

I think if we could actually get some justice on this, that John Brennan could actually get -- you know, outed publicly, that he had in the past. This time, something actually happened. That I think that would be a huge step forward in getting rid of some of these people. That just linger. And secretly pull strings, while we're demanding I couldn't wait.

STU: So tell me what happened with the -- the ICA.

You know, the new report out, about the intelligence community assessment.

What is this story all about?

JASON: Yeah, it's a trade craft. The CIA trade craft review.

GLENN: What does that mean?

A trade craft review?

JASON: It's kind of a sexy way of juts saying, how did we operate, you know, from this time, to this time period?

GLENN: Okay.

JASON: And it points out, you know, how things -- like I said. It points out, in part of it. How things like the Steele dossier, ended up getting included into the, you know, whole Russia gate scandal.

And it looks very, very clear, that -- you know, that should not have -- unverified intelligence should not have gotten as far as the president's desk?

It should not have done it.

Even if it had, then it should have been heavily caveated showing, that this is just opposition research bullcrap.

Well, it didn't.

And if you look at it, very, very physically. It shows that if you are, let's say a Bond villain. Or a Batman villain. And you really, really want this damaging information, that's just opposition research, to somehow make it into the hull of the White House. And then knowing that that's going to get leaked down to the media.

They have perfected, you know, the CIA perfected this kind of operation. They know exactly what they're doing. Who would be responsible for doing it?

Why would they be doing it? And it would be for election interference.

And then that's allegedly what John Brennan was actually doing.

That's what it looks like he was doing.

Now we have the intelligence community assessment, showing that this is what happened. With that information and with now being able to go back to people like John Durham or looking at exactly what statements were made to him. So we can fit them into the statute of limitations. Or before it runs out.

GLENN: Which is in the middle of August.

Which really pisses me off. It's another thing like the -- the debt ceiling. Oh! You know, we've had all these years to fix it. But now we have to fix it tonight, and then it's never fixed.

I mean, I'm telling you, this is -- this is not going to be good!

You know, this -- this Epstein thing is not going to go away. It's just not going to go away.

And I'm sorry, but I think the president is on the wrong side on this.

And I'm not assigning any kind of reason for it, but he wants it to just go away.

And I have my belief, I expressed them yesterday.

It's about Intel, again. But you can't keep stacking these things up. You just can't.

John Brennan is a known bad guy, Russiagate. You would think that Donald Trump would be all over this. Because it affected his life so much. This guy is a very, very bad guy.

And both sides of the aisle know it.

And for some reason, nobody can ever do anything about John Brennan. He's got to be investigated and prosecuted if that's where the evidence leads.

But you can't just walk -- if the statute of limitations runs out on this guy, I think -- I think you've got another chink in the armor. A big one!

JASON: Yeah. Yeah. And not just him. I mean, I would go a lot further and say, who were the people that were directly underneath him?

Who were his subordinates? Who were their subordinates?

How many people had knowledge of this?

What we're really talking about is how it operates.

This is how things happen, outside of the wishes of the president.

You know, the executive or even Congress.

This is how -- you know, this is how outside.

This is how justice and how operations work, you know, from people who are not elected.

People that we did not give a mandate to.

This is how this operates. You have to root out every single one of them.

Identify them.

Have them stand in front of justice and see if we can just finally start to will this thing away.

If we do not, then the future does not look great for what we want for this country.

GLENN: Oh, and it's everywhere.

You know, Kevin O'Conner. He's the White House physician for Biden. The testimony that he gave, well, fine. You know, give him -- give him immunity. Give him immunity.

I don't want to know about the private conversations, you know, about his health.

Although, I do think that is really important. We're talking about the president of the United States. He's not just a private citizen. He's property. You know, the president can't say -- if the Secret Service says, sir, you're not going into that room.

The president no longer has the right to say, I'm going into that room.

Sorry, while you're prosecute. It's almost F you're property of the United States of America. And control over your own person in many ways. I'm sorry. But, you know, the physician, client. Or physician patient confidential, I'm not sure that exists, when you're president of the United States.

But there's no reason why you shouldn't give this guy immunity, and then say, okay. Who said, what?

Were you ever told to lie?

I'm not sure you will get the truth out of this guy. Because he is a -- he is a Biden guy, through and through. But people should start going to jail on that.

I'm so sick and tired of these investigations, that start to show promise and then nothing happens. Nothing.

It's been 20 years of investigations, and no one goes to jail.

It's been 20 years of riots on the streets. You know, people burning cities down. People, you know, looting stores. Destroying our economy.

Destroying the safety in our city. And no one goes to jail. President Trump has got to start sending some big, big messages. And he is on so many fronts.

But this one cannot escape his view.

He's got to be on this one.

All right. Jason, thank you very much.

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