GLENNMarch 24, 2017

Glenn Talks With Megan Phelps-Roper, Former Westboro Baptist Church Member

Megan Phelps-Roper joined Glenn on radio this week for an enlightening discussion about her conversion from Westboro Baptist Church member to someone focused on understanding and inclusion. Like Glenn, Phelps-Roper is a hopeful advocate for bringing people together through honest, civil conversations --- and she's laid out a four-step plan to do just that.

Enjoy the complimentary clip or read the transcript for details.

Welcome to the program, Megan, how are you?

MEGAN: I'm wonderful. How are you?

GLENN: I'm good. It's really an honor to talk to you. We're big fans of what you said in your TED talk, especially from where you started, you know, in a church that is more than a little tough.

MEGAN: Yes. Absolutely.

I grew up at the Westboro Baptist Church. And my family -- the church is almost entirely my family. So around 80 percent -- there's only 80 or so people in the church. And about 80 percent are people -- my grandfather is the one who founded the church. And my mother was the de facto spokesperson for a long time. So, yeah, I grew up on the picket line.

PAT: Yeah, you actually held those hate-filled signs at funerals and other places, right?

GLENN: When you were a kid.

MEGAN: Yes. Absolutely.

PAT: Yeah.

MEGAN: It started out as a protest at a local park, and it sort of really expanded from there. As soon as, you know -- my grandfather was very aggressive, kind of hostile personality. So when people started to come out to counterprotest, everybody who was against us became a target. And eventually -- what started out as it being a protest against gay people, became, you know, we were protesting against other Christians and Jews. It expanded rapidly, until literally everyone outside of our church became a target. And so it was basically a -- you know, I was marinating in this idealogy of everybody is against us. We are against everybody because they're all against the Scriptures. You know, memorizing chapter and verse why they're wrong and why they're headed for hell. And it's our duty to go out and warn them.

STU: I'm fascinated, Megan, because I think to my childhood, and I remember fun picnics and fun trips to amusement parks and things like that. Do you have those types of memories, or is it just -- is there a competition between that and you carrying some awful sign around during a protest?

MEGAN: No. I absolutely have those memories. My -- a lot of people have a hard time understanding that they -- other than these protests and that worldview, they're -- we were a very normal -- obviously there's a lot of kids in our family. There's 11 kids in my family. And -- but we played video games and read books. And we went to public school. And, yeah, we went to amusement parks. We did all of those things, but we also -- that was all sort of organized around this nationwide picketing campaign.

So I have -- I absolutely have both, but that -- that loving family -- the nature of that is part of what makes it so, so, so hard to leave or to even consider leaving. The idea of giving it all up.

GLENN: So I just had a guy in who we're going to interview on a program that I'm working on. He was a member of the Hitler Youth. Now, he's in his 80s now. But he came of age in the Hitler Youth, until I think World War II ended, when he was 20. And he still had -- he sees the world very differently. He thinks that Churchill is a war -- should be held for war crimes. A war criminal.

STU: Hmm.

GLENN: And he doesn't agree with Hitler. But he said, I never saw -- we never saw any of that. At least he said, I didn't. I was in the front row of the 36 Olympics. You know, I -- I saw all the good stuff. And the bad stuff that was thrown up, you just dismissed it because you thought it was somebody that was trying to tear us down. Is that kind of the way your childhood was in a way?

MEGAN: Well, I mean, I know -- I knew at the time -- so, for instance, the funeral picketing, I knew at the time that it was hurtful. But the way that it was framed in our church was, you know, these people don't understand that they're headed for hell, for eternal destruction. And it's a loving thing to go and warn them.

And so I saw it as a necessary evil, like we had to go do this because this was the truth and the only thing that mattered, more than anything else was the truth. And it didn't matter how we said it, where we said, or in what context, it was always a good thing. And -- and it was a point of pride for us not to consider people's feelings.

GLENN: And the people -- and the people that were coming against you, because they were screaming back in your face, it only reinforced that these are bad people.

MEGAN: Absolutely. Especially because -- I mean, there's all these passages. So, for instance, Jesus talks about blessed are ye when men shall hate you and revile you and persecute you, for my name sake. So for us, like we wanted that. It was -- we expected it. It was confirmation that we were doing the Lord's work.

STU: Wow.

GLENN: Now, take us to how someone finally broke through.

MEGAN: So Twitter -- Twitter was -- and I didn't realize it at first. I didn't realize that it was happening exactly. But Twitter was an empathy machine for me.

I really hate how it's gotten such a bad rap because that platform has done more to teach me good communication and how to engage with people than almost anything else in my life.

So on Twitter, people would -- would come at me with the same kind of, you know, hateful rhetoric and loud, you know, accusations and just very bitter. And, again, I expected it.

And I would respond, you know, in kind. And -- but then some people -- and I don't know exactly why or what motivated them. I think they -- they saw -- they say that they saw something in me that maybe I would listen or something. But in any case, they stopped yelling and stopped, you know, insulting me and started to ask questions. And they were like -- they seemed like they were actually listening to me.

GLENN: They were honest questions. They were honest questions.

PAT: Yes.

GLENN: They weren't questions of setup.

MEGAN: Right. Exactly.

And it made me feel -- and because, again, I thought I was doing a good thing. I thought that those words that we were preaching, I thought that was the absolute, unquestionable truth. So I wanted to share it with them. That's why I was on social media.

And so I would, you know, answer their questions and sort of -- we had these back-and-forths. But then because of Twitter, I'm also seeing the photos they post of their children and their friends. And it just became this -- this way for me to see people as human beings. And it was because of the way -- because of the fact that they stopped -- the way they engaged me.

STU: That's incredible, that that came from Twitter too. Someone tweeted the other day, Instagram, my life is a party. Snapchat, my life is a quirky TV show. Facebook, my life turned out great. Twitter, we're all going to die. When I go on Twitter, man, I just get so depressed. But it's amazing you were able to take that out of this.

MEGAN: Yeah. I know. But there's a couple of things about Twitter that were really helpful to me. So like, for instance, the character limit, it first made me give up insults. Because at Westboro, we would include these elaborate insults when we responded to questions that people sent us by email. But on Twitter, there just wasn't space for it.

And also, Twitter was just this immediate feedback loop. If I did insult somebody, I could watch the conversation just derail in realtime. I could see that I wasn't getting my point across because I was too busy indulging that vengeful little voice in my head that wanted to call people names. I mean, we all have this feedback loop.

GLENN: Megan, I will tell you, I've been doing these kinds of experiments myself over the last couple of years, where I've gotten in -- because I just stopped engaging for a while. About years ago, I decided, you know what, I'm just going to answer everybody and assume the best. And just answer the -- the worst with something kind and try to be humble and kind and nice to everybody. Really hard to do.

And it's amazing the results. It's truly remarkable. It doesn't cure everybody by any stretch. But it's remarkable.

And I've talked about it on the air. And so many people say, it's not going to make a difference. You can't engage with them. They're all crazy. They're all whatever. What would you say to that?

MEGAN: Man, I just disagree so -- so much with the idea of hopelessness when it comes to talking to people.

I had -- I had grown up, you know, being -- basically cultivating this mindset of us versus them, being wary -- like specifically being wary of people's kindness. And even though I consciously was aware and trying not to be persuaded by kindness, it was still a powerful thing.

It's really interesting because over the past few years, I've been thinking about this a lot obviously. Because it's only been four years since I left. So it's kind of been just this huge -- you know, huge event in my life. And what you're describing there, about, you know, assuming the best and, you know, changing the way you respond. So if somebody comes at you angry and you respond in kindness and angry, that's called like, non-complimentary behavior. And we as human beings are wired to respond in kind.

But like you said, it's incredibly difficult to do. But we can cultivate a more useful mindset. Like one thing you said -- well, my mom used to tell me, to make sure my behavior was appropriate, I should add the word "judge" on to the end of my sentence, as in, "Here's why I did it, Judge." And I still use that trick, except now I add the word "friend." If someone attacks me and I start to get riled up, I try to pause for a beat and add friend, as if I'm disagreeing with someone I love. And I don't do it to be a goody two-shoes. I do it because it works. It's just so much more effective than anger or insults or hostility.

GLENN: All right. I want to get to -- you say there are four steps. And I want to get to those here in a second. Let me just ask you one more question, and then I have to take a quick break.

Do you -- are you well aware of how appropriately timed your discovery and your story is for the rest of the world?

MEGAN: I -- I just -- I hope that -- I hope that I can be a voice or that the story can be something that will help other people see the value in engaging. Because honestly, my experience has -- has given me so much hope. I never thought I would leave. And at first, when I first left, I thought that my family, there was no hope for most of my family. I don't believe that anymore. And I'm still reaching out to them. I'm still trying to convince them to see things other ways. And if there's hope for me, if I changed, I think that there's a lot of hope.

You know, I know that the political climate is so polarized right now, but I can't help but feel so hopeful.

GLENN: Megan Phelps-Roper. She'll continue with us here in just a second. You need to hear what her solution is. It's really a four-step process. And it's really pretty easy. Left the Westboro Baptist Church because of kindness. You want to hear her whole story. Watch the TED video because it's quite amazing.

[break]

Megan Phelps-Roper is a former member of the Westboro Baptist Church, where people were kind to her and started to talk to her. And she says, this really works. And, you know, you could be in the cult of a political part. And I think this works. I think we need this across all lines in the world right now.

Megan, you did a TED talk. You said there are four tips on how to talk to people who you disagree with.

MEGAN: Yes. Exactly.

You want me to tell them to you?

GLENN: Yeah. Sure.

MEGAN: So the first one is -- I think it's really important -- don't assume bad intent. It's so easy to look at -- I mean, Westboro is such an easy example. They've got these neon signs. It was so clearly obvious to everyone that we were hateful and evil and awful people.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

MEGAN: But underneath it was well-intentioned people trying to do what they believed was right. So it's really easy to look at the surface and assume the worst of people, assume you understand where they're coming from. But that almost immediately cuts you off from really understanding what they're about.

GLENN: It's one of the reasons why -- I've tried to cut the word evil out of my lexicon because we use that to -- too often. And we use it about people. And I really think most people have great intent. You know, Donald Trump, Barack Obama, you can disagree with either one of them, but neither one of them think they're doing evil. They think they're doing the right thing. You just don't see it that way.

MEGAN: Exactly. I think very few -- maybe sociopaths or psychopaths. And even then --

GLENN: Right.

MEGAN: People who are deliberately doing wrong, I think they're very, very, very few and far between.

GLENN: Yes. Right. And that doesn't mean you have to go along with it, but if you say to them or their followers, you know, your guy is evil, they stop listening to you.

MEGAN: Right. Exactly. And you stop asking questions to get to the bottom of it, which is the second point. Asking questions helps you bridge the gap between your point of view and theirs. It helps you understand where they're coming from actually. And it also signals to the people that you're talking to, that you're actually listening to them.

And that is a huge benefit to the dialogue because they -- they no longer -- they don't want to yell at you. They see that you want to understand. So they're much more willing to engage. So the second point is ask questions.

GLENN: And it matters that they're honest questions, not setup questions. Not a question where I know you're going to say one thing so I can give you the Scripture quote or whatever to beat you.

MEGAN: Exactly.

GLENN: It has to be a question that's not designed for me to win. We're going to take a quick break. Come back with the last two with Megan Phelps-Roper, when we come back.

(OUT AT 10:32AM)

GLENN: Megan Phelps-Roper, somebody that we saw on TED talk, giving a great TED talk on how to bring people together. She was in the -- she's a Phelps. So she's part of the founding family of the Westboro Baptist Church. And she got online and started making friends with people who were friendly to her, not just yelling at her all the time. And she said there are four things that if you really want to change people's minds, four ways of engaging people so that real conversations can take place. The first one is don't assume bad intent. Instead, assume good or neutral intent. The second, ask questions, as opposed to accusing. Ask honest questions. It will help people let them know they've been heard. And quite often, this is all that people want.

The third is stay calm. Welcome back to the program, Megan. Explain stay calm.

MEGAN: So this one is really difficult because the natural inclination is always to respond the way that somebody is -- is speaking to you. So when somebody comes at you with hostility, the instinct is to be defensive and to respond with hostility. But that just brings the conversation to an end quickly. But if you can learn to step back, calm down and -- and try to diffuse the anger -- and you can do it in a few ways.

So, for instance, I actually ended up marrying -- my husband was one of these Twitter friends who started out as this angry, sort of insulting --

GLENN: Wow.

MEGAN: We just got married seven months ago.

GLENN: Congratulations.

MEGAN: Thank you. So what he would do, for instance, he would tell a joke or recommend a book or start talking about music. He would sort of turn away from the hostility for a minute and then come back to it -- come back to it later.

You don't necessarily -- I mean, that's -- that can be a last resort. A lot of times just staying calm and speaking as if you were addressing a friend and not somebody that you hate and that you despise that you can't -- you can't stand to hear their words. It helps so much to keep the conversation going.

GLENN: Step four.

MEGAN: Step four is make the argument.

And this one -- this one seems obvious. But there's this argument that seems to have taken hold on both the left and the right. And I think it stems from the hopelessness you mentioned earlier. Oh, they're just too far gone. They can't be reasoned with. But where does that lead us?

It leaves us at loggerheads. Deadlocked. And no one wants to be there. So you make the argument because they don't understand -- your opponent doesn't necessarily understand your thinking and the way that you're approaching the problem. And by making the argument -- if you fail to do that, you're definitely not going to change someone's mind. You actually have to articulate the reasoning and the thought process behind your position.

And there's actually a fifth point that I would have included if I had enough time -- should I tell you now?

GLENN: Yeah, go ahead.

STU: We're breaking news here. The fifth point in Megan Phelps' TED talk.

GLENN: Go ahead.

(chuckling)

MEGAN: It's take heart. Changing hearts and minds is incremental work, and it takes patience and persistence. And you're not going to see results necessarily immediately, not right away, but we can't give up. You know, and you might not be the person to persuade somebody else to turn away from a bad position, but every interaction is an opportunity to help turn the tide. So stay the course, trust the process, and take heart.

GLENN: How many people -- how many people were like this to you?

MEGAN: Well, the ones who had the biggest impact -- I mean, a handful who were engaging me continually over the course of a couple of years, considering I had been in the church. I had been raised in this. And I was 24 when I got on Twitter. So I was, again, marinating in this ideology and this way of thinking. So the fact that it only took a couple of years to really affect me and how I saw things, I think that's pretty remarkable.

GLENN: So did your husband -- was there a time when your husband -- is now your husband --

MEGAN: Yeah.

GLENN: Was he falling in love with you at the time? Did that happen later? Did he say, I can't believe I'm saying this to you -- I mean, how did that happen?

MEGAN: Well, it's a -- it's a really strange -- it was a really strange dynamic because obviously I was at the church. And at Westboro, you could only marry somebody who was in the church. So we were having these discussions, and there was nothing -- it was like a Jane Austen novel, like nothing overt. Like we couldn't say how we were feeling to each other because it just wasn't acceptable. And he sensed that.

And -- but he also, again, saw that I was a human being. And he came to believe that I had a good heart.

GLENN: So would this have worked -- would this have worked without love?

MEGAN: Well, I think -- well, so here's the thing. I -- yes, I believe so. And the reason is that the very first interaction was with a friend. I mentioned him in the talk too. Jewlicious. His name is David Abitbol.

And so it was -- I think I was talking with him for a little over a year. And, again, he's asking these questions. And in the course of asking these questions, he was the one who found the first -- the first bit of internal inconsistency in Westboro's doctrines. And when I look back at how I responded to that -- so my husband -- I didn't actually start speaking to him until months after that. But when I think about how I responded to that first bit of internal inconsistency, that was when I first started to challenge, in my own mind, Westboro's doctrines.

GLENN: And you didn't let him know that.

MEGAN: No. For sure. As soon as he had made that point, I was actually terrified to speak to him again. I didn't even let on that I recognized that he was right. I just stopped speaking to him.

GLENN: Wow. What was the point, if you don't mind me asking?

MEGAN: Oh, yeah, no, not at all.

It was a sign that said "death penalty for fags."

GLENN: Oh, my gosh.

MEGAN: Yeah. So, of course -- we used, you know, the verses in Leviticus and also in Romans 1 that talk about how, you know, gays are worthy of death. And he brought up -- so he's Jewish. I was really surprised that he brought up Jesus, saying, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And I didn't -- I just had never connected that that was talking about the death penalty. And we thought, we're not -- we're not casting stones. We're just preaching words.

And David said, "Yeah, but you're advocating that the government cast stones."

And so that -- when I brought that point to other members of the church, the response was just to double down. They never addressed the passage that -- you know, that contradicted us. They just reiterated the passages that supported us. And so that was the first time that -- and the way that I reconciled it in my own mind was I just stopped holding the sign because I didn't know how to defend it anymore. And I didn't believe in it.

GLENN: Did they tell you to stop talking to these people?

MEGAN: I don't think -- I don't think people quite realized how much -- I mean, they knew I was very active on Twitter, but I don't think they realized how much it was affecting the way that I was thinking. I honestly didn't -- didn't understand it either.

Because in my mind -- I think I was in denial about it because -- you are not supposed to be impacted by other people. You are not supposed to be anything, but preaching to them. You're not supposed to really, you know, care -- I was going to say care about them. It was a very strange dynamic. But I was in denial about it. And I think that definitely helped it seem to others as if it wasn't really having an impact on me also.

PAT: Is anybody in your family speaking with you? Do you have a relationship with anybody anymore in the family?

MEGAN: Not anybody in the church, no. But there has been over the last decade or so, about 20 or so people who have either left or have been kicked out of Westboro. And my brother actually, the morning of my high school graduation -- he's a year and a half older than me. We woke up and went downstairs, and all of his stuff was gone. And so I have -- I didn't get to speak with him for the eight and half years between when he left and when I left. But now we're really good friends. And he's wonderful.

PAT: What was he thrown out for?

MEGAN: No, he left actually.

PAT: Oh, he left on his own.

MEGAN: He left at 19. Yeah, he also had Scriptural objections to some things. And also the extreme -- he objected to the extreme level of control because everybody in the church -- we all lived within two blocks or so of one another and did everything together and were obviously not developing relationships with people outside. But the level of control is -- is really -- really, really extreme.

GLENN: Do they -- do you think this will just die out as the family dies out, or?

MEGAN: Actually, I thought about this. My sister and I would talk about this about how could the church end in a way that just wouldn't destroy everybody on the inside?

There's still about the same level of membership as there has been. Because a few people -- a few new converts have joined. And then, of course, my generation has now -- they're having kids. But there's not many.

GLENN: What kind of people would join -- what kind of people join this? They really believe -- the newcomers that come in --

STU: It's one thing to be raised in it, but to be converted as an adult.

GLENN: Decent people. Yeah.

MEGAN: So honestly, I've speculated about this too. So, for instance, my dad -- my dad joined the church long before the picketing started. He was only 16 at the time. And, you know, his family wasn't -- I mean, his mom had been divorced. I don't think he -- he was attracted to the love and unity and connection I think in my family. In the Phelps family, I think. And I think that's a draw for some people. And it really lends credence to the idea that they're doing what they're doing out of love, out of good intentions.

And, again, some people just, I think are drawn to that defense of the idea of having all the answers and knowing for sure what you believe and how you're supposed to live. Like, it's -- that was such a powerful thing. When I left and realized like, I don't -- I don't have that anymore. I don't have that sense of -- it's a very comforting sense of certainty. And, you know, nuance and questions and uncertainty are a lot more difficult to deal with. I think some people are attracted to that part of the church.

GLENN: Next time they're out protesting, what should people do?

MEGAN: I think engaging at protests is actually not a very effective thing because they're -- on picket lines, they're already in these attack/defend mindsets. I think the internet is a much -- you know, Twitter. There's a lot of them on Twitter now. I think that's a more effective way of engaging. But if you -- if you do see them and if you are moved to go and speak to them, just remember that -- that responding with, you know, yelling and name-calling, all those things, it just reinforces what they already believe. It's adding to, you know, their certainty that they're doing the right thing.

GLENN: It is really -- it's really great to talk to you. Megan Phelps-Roper. You can find her @MeganPhelps. That's her Twitter handle. @MeganPhelps.

Really great to talk to you. And thank you for sharing this. And I think you have an important voice that needs to be heard.

STU: And I will say, Megan, will you confirm this, because we got the fifth point out of you, we are 25 percent better than your TED talk.

MEGAN: Yeah, for sure.

GLENN: Megan, can we pay you an off-handed compliment. Stu wanted to say this, we said it during the break. And it's weird because it's exactly what we're talking about. We don't know each other. We don't talk to each other.

We look at people in the Westboro Baptist Church and think that their kids just must be dumb as a box of rocks. And just, oatmeal! Every answer is, oatmeal! (chuckling) And you're so articulate. I mean, it's amazing just to have that view shattered.

MEGAN: Thank you.

I will say -- I mean, another thing that's not so well-known about the church, education was really important in my family. Most of the people there -- many lawyers, people who work in health care, and IT. And they're very well educated.

PAT: Wow.

GLENN: Wow.

MEGAN: Which is partly I think what makes it so much more difficult for them to see outside of it. This is like a psychological thing where, by -- by having these very strong mostly internally consistent arguments, they -- they think they're so certain that they don't even question the -- they don't even question it.

GLENN: Amazing.

MEGAN: But, yeah, anyway...

GLENN: Thank you so much. @MeganPhelps. Thank you so much, Megan. Appreciate it.

MEGAN: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

GLENN: You bet.

RADIO

She Survived a Communist Death Camp. Will She Survive BIDEN'S Prisons?

88-year-old Eva Edl was arrested for violating the FACE Act, which restricts pro-life protests in front of abortion clinics. Now, she faces up to 6 months i prison and $10,000 in fines — which were originally 11 years in prison and $350,000 in fines. She was prepared to die in prison for standing up for the unborn IN AMERICA. But this wouldn't be her first time being a political prisoner. When she was 10 years old, she was sent to a concentration camp in communist Yugoslavia. Glenn reviews this crazy story, which is a reminder of how crucial our choice in the November election really is.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I want to tell you about a story about a Christian pro-life activist, who finds herself in prison today.

Here in America. She's 88 years old. Now, she has to be quite a hardened criminal. 88. They scoop her up. She's in prison.

I want you to notice as I tell you the story, the difference between good and evil. And how America tolerates and even embraces absolute evil.

And can no longer even see good. We have protesters on the streets. And people make excuses for them. We have robberies. Some cities are an absolute hellhole now, because of what we have going on in the streets, with just illegal aliens.

By the way, did you notice that something else was in the bill, from the other night, when they -- you know, the war bill.

Or, I'm sorry.

The peace bill.

Where they gave $60 billion to Ukraine. And then they gave a little money to Taiwan. And then a little money to Israel. And then a little money to Hamas. Just so we can play all sides. And then they also put the TikTok thing in.

Huh, there was something else there. It was a buttload of money to be able to open up new offices. Federal offices, US government offices. To help ease the way -- more refugees into the United States.

They're building, I think four of them. I think it was $4 billion that was in that -- in that bill. To be able to open it up, to make the pathway to coming here, to the United States, from the Arab world, easier. I have nothing -- no piece against Eric. However, I just don't think that we're screening people very well.

There's a lot of people over in the Arab world, who hate our guts. What are we doing?

We can't see good and bad anymore. We can't see good versus evil anymore.

So here's Eva Edl. She's 88 years old. She's making peace with her life and her death now in prison. Put there by Joe Biden. She's been in prison before. She's familiar with the consequences of dehumanization. After the Nazi forces were rooted in -- in Europe. And they were just routed out.

The war at large was coming to an end. She was ten. And she was tossed into the communist dictator Tito's concentration camps.

She was a Nazi sympathizer. She was ten. She was ten.

Everybody was branded as a Nazi collaborator by Tito's Communist Party. They were targeting for their ethnic background. We were considered, she said, just nonhuman. It was permission to torture and kill by the government.

In camp, she said, she ended up losing all the skin on her legs. Hobbled by sores.

People gagged when they came near me, she said. The flies and the fleas and the lice and the bedbugs, just loved my festering body. She was ten.

She managed to escape to Austria. She spent several years in refugee camps. Made it to the United States. Only to be arrested by Joe Biden's jackbooted thugs. She's now making peace with her death in prison, for defending the lives of the biggest cohort of dehumanized people, slaughtered by the tens of millions, globally, every single year. The unborn.

The Justice Department charged her and ten other pro-life activists in October of 22 take it, for violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.

This came from Bill Clinton. The pro-life activist staged a peaceful protest, inside the abortion clinic in Mt. Juliet, Tennessee, on March 5th, 2021. They were singing, they were praying in support of those persons who had and would be slaying deeper inside the abortion clinic.

According to the Blaze article, earlier this month, she and the final four of the 11 pro-life activists were convicted.

The US attorney's office fort middle district of Tennessee, indicated that she faces up to six months in prison.

Five years of supervisor, or supervised relief.

Supervised release. And up to $10,000 in fines.

They were thinking about giving her up to a decade in prison. But I don't know. Maybe they saw this 88-year-old frail woman, who had been in a concentration camp.

As maybe want a threat, really. So they only gave her six months.

America has an amazing choice. A hard one. Because neither the candidates are perfect. They've both shown us what we can do. Donald Trump showed us exactly what he can do.

And Joe Biden has shown us exactly what he can do. Both will go further, I'm assuming, in their second term, than they did in the first term. One, because one learned an awful lot in the first term. And the other because there will be no consequence.

By the way, do you know they said that we told you that they were trying to ban gas stoves. We said, that's insanity. That can't be true. But the administration said it. Then they came out and said, we never said that. That's a conspiracy theory.

We have no desire to ban gas stoves.

Yesterday, the president signed a new executive order, banning all gas stoves in any government building.

Because we're phasing all the gas stoves out.

That's the priority!

You can't -- you can't afford to put things in the pan, on the stove. To cook it up for your family.

But he wants to ban gas stoves.

Yeah. Because oil is so much better.

And electricity, well, that just comes from the magic socket in the wall!

RADIO

Is the Ark of the Covenant's Location KNOWN?

With some in Israel preparing to build a third Jewish Temple, and news of the possible sacrifice of a red heifer, many are asking: how much is about to change? And when the third Temple is built, will it require the Ark of the Covenant to be found? Can it even be found? Shoreshim Ministries founder Bill Cloud joins Glenn to explain it all. Plus, he reviews 4 places where the Ark is rumored to be and how likely each of those locations are to house the Ark: Is it in Ethiopia? Mt. Nebo? Outside the Old City? Or is it hidden in tunnels under the Temple Mount? Plus, Bill and Glenn discuss whether anything would have to happen to the Dome of the Rock for the Temple to be rebuilt.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Okay. So does the dome of the rock have to be destroyed for the third temple?

BILL: That's what most people think when they consider, you know, a building of the temple. Although, not everybody thinks that that is necessary.

And because there is some dispute about where the temple actually sat, where the Holy of Holies was.

There's a lot of religious -- where the dome of the rock is.

There was a gentleman, excuse me, back in the late '80s, early '90s.

A professor at the University. He felt that the holy of holies was actually a little north of the dome of the rock, at a place called the dome of the tablets of the spirits.

So most people believe that the dome of the rock has to go. There are some who believe that it's possible, that the temple could have -- it's not just north.

And technically speaking, could it be on the same platform. There's even a passage in revelation chapter seven. Where John is told to measure the temple of God. To leave the court outside. Leave that out.

The Gentiles. So some people have thought, well, maybe that is suggesting that there is going to be a temple, alongside either the dome of the rock.

Or the mosque. And, you know, I don't know. I find that problematic for a lot of reasons.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like the burning of the red heifer right there, you know, in Arab territory.

It might be a problem with that.

BILL: That's right.

GLENN: So, you know, the Ark of the Covenant is where they kept the Ten Commandments. And I know it was real. I know it existed. I never, ever thought, we're going to find that.

We're going to find that? Is that important for the rebuilding of the temple?

BILL: Well, technically speaking. The second temple.

This is the one that was built after the Babylonian captivity. And then Herod expanded it. That, we did not have the Ark of the Covenant in it. And it was still considered the house of God.

So there's historical precedent for rebuilding the temple and not having the ark. However, there's prophecies that talk about, how the glory of the latter house is going to be greater than the first one. Referring to Solomon, which is referring to the Ark of the Covenant.

So technically, they could rebuild it without the ark.

However, there have been those in Israel, since the reunification of Jerusalem, who not only do they want to build a temple of the Temple Mount, but they want to find the Ark of the Covenant.

And there are a lot of traditions, as to what happened to the Ark of the Covenant.

Some say, that it went to Ethiopia, which I don't believe.

Some people say, that Jeremiah hid it in Mount Nebo which is Jordan. Some people believe it's outside the old city, buried. And then there are quite a number of people. And particularly, people close to the idea of rebuilding the temple.

Who believe it's buried somewhere, and underneath the Temple Mount.

That's not really a big secret honestly. It's all oar the internet.

GLENN: No. But I find, if you know something about the Temple Mount.

We'll come back to this in just a second.

Because there's somebody a labyrinth of temples underneath, et cetera, et cetera. But I can't see how those have not been, you know, exhaustively gone through by those of the Muslim religion.

We'll give more of those in just a second. Stand by.
(music)

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(music)

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(OUT AT 10:29 AM)

GLENN: Welcome to the Glenn Beck Program.

We're glad you're here.

We're talking to bill cloud, as passover comes up on Monday.

We're talking about Biblical prophecies. Because there's a lot of stuff happening in the world right now.

Where a lot of people are going, you know. I think eye read about this someplace before.

But. No man knows when.

I mean, it could be a thousand years from now.

But it will happen at some point.

And we need to be aware. And I want to make this really clear. And, Bill, I think you'll back me up on this.

The Lord was not. He didn't look at Scriptures and was like, man. It doesn't have a snappy ending.

I want part two of this. So let me leave them on a scary cliffhanger.

The Book of Revelation was written, not to scare us.

But to say, look, all of these things will come to pass.

And it's almost. I think it's a blessing, that he says, and, you know, at this point, the seven-year clock starts to -- to tick off.

And he's telling us, this -- I'm not -- don't be shocked by these things.

They're going to be bad. And they're going to seem like they're never-ending.

But they're not.

And I'm telling you these things, so you have faith. And can make it through those times. Is that how you read it?

BILL: Absolutely. When you go to the Book of Revelation, by the way. And you look at the heading.

It says, the revelation of Jesus Christ. It does not say the revelation of the Antichrist or the tribulation or bold judgments and vile judges. It's about the Messiah. In fact, it says, in that book, that the essence of prophecy is the testimony of the messiah. The spirit of prophecy is about the messiah.

So everything about all this bad stuff, ultimately, it will point us to the messiah. Because all the bad stuff is just the Satan, and those who practice wickedness. Trying to stop the messiah from returning and sitting upon his throne in Jerusalem. To rule and reign.

So, yeah, it doesn't end on a bad note. It ends on what mankind, those who love and holiness had been longing for, since Adam was exiled from the garden.

A return, to be with God and God be in our midst. So that's the greatest thing that we could ever hope for. And all these things that we would see, is pointing us to that. So it's an excellent observation on your part.

It tells us these things. In fact, when he sat down on the Mount of Olives with his disciples. This is a -- by the way, Mount of Olives is where they will burn that red heifer when they do it. But anyway, he sits down on the Mount of Olives. And he says, tell me all these things, as you said, so you know this will happen.

But don't be dismayed. Don't fall in despair. I'm telling you these things, so that you will not be deceived.

I'm telling you these things, in advance, you won't be impulsive, and running after things that you shouldn't be running after. So when these things happen, keep your focus.

You know, kind of stay the course on what you know is true. So absolutely, I agree with you.

GLENN: Growing lawlessness is the sign of the last days. And we're seeing lawlessness, like I've never seen before.

Now, this has happened over and over again. Where societies have been lawless, and they collapse.

But lawlessness in the last days, it gives birth to the lawless one. Which is the Antichrist. Right?

BILL: Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. You know, a lot of people have thought, that the Antichrist have come to power. And he will create this lawless environment.

I believe a lawless environment gives birth to the lawless one. The final prediction of the Antichrist.

GLENN: To me, that -- that is -- makes sense.

We're -- you know, it was about 2000, oh, six. I was talking to Condoleezza Rice. And she used very specific language. She was on my show. And we were talking about, you know, what things look like now.

And, you know, what's coming our way. And she said, these things are birth pangs. Of the things to come.

And I thought, that was -- you know, rather unusual language for somebody to use.

Because it's very Scriptural.

BILL: Yeah. That's Biblical language for sure.

GLENN: Yeah, it is. And we are giving birth to something. I don't know if it's the -- you know, the Antichrist. Or the end times. Or just really, really bad times.

But there -- everything that we're seeing, these are like contractions and birth pangs. When things happen, you're like, ow. That hurt. And they're becoming faster and faster and closer and closer to one another.

We are giving birth to something.

BILL: Yeah. Well, in Hebrews, it's the birth pangs of the Messiah.

The Messiah is -- and his rule and reign, over the earth, that's what is -- that's what's being birthed. That's what's coming to fruition.

It's just in the process, the earth and everybody in it, has to go through these birth pangs.

Paul talks about how the earth is groaning and producing this travail and birth pangs. So that the sons of God will be revealed. That goes hand-in-glove with the messiah and his return. That's what's being birthed.

But just like in any birth, something that is wonderful. There's all this yuckiness, and pain and suffering.

Unfortunately, that pressure has to be there, to get those who are listening to the voice of the Lord, in the place that he wants them to be. And that is, not giving in to the lawlessness. Not giving in to the just crazy stuff, that society is pushing down our throats.

But to stay true, based on what Christians say.

So that's what's being birthed, as far as I'm concerned.

GLENN: Let me go back to the Ark of the Covenant. It seems like an Indiana Jones movie. It doesn't seem rule in some ways.

I know it is. Or I know it was.

But then it just kind of disappeared.

Nobody really knows what happened to it. People have been looking for it, forever.

And people are saying, it will be revealed. And some people believe it's under the Temple Mount.

I've stood, at the place where they say, right behind these stones, is where they think the holy of holies is.

Which is where they think the Ark of the Covenant is.

And it's a labyrinth of passageways and everything, underneath there. At least it used to be. But why -- why would it -- how could it possibly be still there, when, you know, the Muslims have been digging underneath the Temple Mount for a long time. And taking truckloads, of -- of dirt and antiquities out and just dumping them.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, how could it still be there?

You know, I don't know that I have the answer to that question. I will just say, my faith would say, if God wanted it to be there, it will still be there. He has a way of watching over things.

GLENN: Right.

But is it prophesied that it will be found and come back, or is this just something that some people think?

BILL: Well, the last time you see -- or you see a mention of the Ark of the Covenant. Is when Josiah tells the priest to take the Ark of the Covenant and put it in the house that Solomon had prepared for it. And, by the way, there are people who read into that. Well, the Ark of the Covenant was already in the temple. What is Josiah saying? Some people say, well, he was hiding it, because he knew the Babylonians were coming. And that's where some people think, well, it's hidden in somewhere around Jerusalem.

Most people close to the temple, are -- our rebuilt temple. Motivation. Think it's under the Temple Mount.

But, you know, it disappears from the record, is the point.

And the next time you see anything mentioned. It's in the Book of Revelation, actually.

After all this other stuff is over with.

All the bad stuff.

So, yeah. It is a big mystery.

I will tell you a quick story. Ninety-two.
I and another gentleman, along with an Israeli friend, we went to the office of Rabbi Yehuda Getz, who at that time was over all of the holy places in Jerusalem.

And to make a long story short, Rabbi Getz did not believe that the Ark of the Covenant was in Ethiopia. He did not believe it was there.

He felt very confident, he knew where the Ark of the Covenant was. And he did not tell us. But our Israeli friend, later told us, that in the early '80s, along with a lot of the men who were participants, in the relitigation of Jerusalem. '67. Actually, when these excavations begun, they were looking for the Ark of the Covenant. Because they believed that it was under the temple mount somewhere. I've even heard reports, that it was supposedly -- saw the place where it was kept. Now, I don't know that to be a fact.

So there are people who do believe it still exists. There are people that are in Jerusalem, who would love for that to be revealed. And I would suggest that if that were -- if you think the red of her will cause --

GLENN: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I can't imagine how that could be revealed, and the whole world not taking real significant note.

Whether you believe that the -- what's ever in it. Or that the remnants of the Ten Commandments. Or not.

It doesn't matter.

For the Ark of the Covenant to be revealed and come back.

That would say a lot, about Israel. About Jerusalem. About the times we live in. I mean, pretty much everything. Pretty much everything.

GLENN: Well, it still exists. And this is just my opinion. That's all it is, just an opinion.

I tend to believe that if it does exist, and it's going to be revealed.

Then it probably will coincide with the Messianic age, with the Messiah's return.

And I think that would probably be more likely. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who would be very, very excited to be -- to have an opportunity. To find it, look for it. And if they could, bring it out.

And that would cause World War III, most likely.

GLENN: It probably would.

It's weird, Bill. When you're over there. You don't understand highway this little patch of land has caused so much turmoil really, in the world.

Why everybody seems to be -- you know, centered on that patch of land. Because it's not very big.

And it's almost like it's a pulse, you can feel it.

That Temple Mount. There's something about that area.

It's God's throne. And you can feel it.

It's amazing. It's amazing.

BILL: Exactly. Exactly. That, what you just said, is prophetic. Prophecy said, he will make Jerusalem burden themselves. And even more -- more so, the Temple Mount. Because that is where God's presence kissed the earth.

And the Ark of the Covenant was basically God's throne on earth.

So, yeah. It's a very contested piece of property, and it will be at the heart of conflict. Yes.

GLENN: Bill Cloud, thank you so much.

If you would like to follow him, you can follow him on his website at BillCloud.org. That's BillCloud.org.

RADIO

Why Congress Keeps HURTING Americans to Fund Endless Wars

The Senate has passed a $95 billion war package, which will mostly fund Ukraine. But, although Congress somehow snuck the TikTok bill into it, they also took out one of the most important parts! So, what do we have here, Glenn asks? Another bill that moves us in the direction of endless wars. But this isn't just the Democrats. A good chunk of Republicans was also for this. The real problem, Glenn argues, isn't Republicans or Democrats. It's that BOTH sides have abandoned the Constitution. But we CAN fix this, Glenn argues: "Nothing will change unless something changes." However, the solution is NOT a civil war — in fact, PRAY that we don't have one!

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Okay. Let me see. Last hour, I was -- I was telling you about what happened in the Senate, last night. The Senate passed a package, $95 billion.

It does not secure our border. It goes in, and takes more money. And straps your children and your grandchildren with another $95 billion. It gives money to Taiwan, which hacks off the Chinese. And that's fine. But, gang. Let's be honest.

We are not going to fight a war in Taiwan.

Maybe one day, we would have, but we cannot do it. It would stretch, just -- just -- just this alone, would kill and cripple the United States. We don't have the supply lines. So if we wanted to protect Taiwan, our supply line would take all of the assets we have all over the world, just to supply everything we need for Taiwan.

Now, I -- I am sorry, but that's the truth.

I think Taiwan should be its own nation.

I don't want to see China, gobble up another nation. But we cannot do it. The days of us saying, we can protect everywhere, and do everything.

Those are over. They've been over for a very long time. We won the Cold War. And then we lost the peace.

And, quite honestly, I'm going to blame a lot of this on people like me.

Okay?

We won the Cold War!

Yeah. Tear down that wall!

And then we just thought it was okay.

And then we continued on, all of these endless wars.

We listened to presidents like George H.W. Bush. Who was a spook. We have listened to the State Department.

Over and over again.

Have you noticed that since the United Nations happened, things are not really much better? With war?

Yeah. We haven't had a global war yet.

But we're setting everything else on fire.

And since tragedy and hope, a book that was written in the 1960s.

That explained, there will only be police actions. And no clear winners in war, anymore.

It will end kind of in a standoff. It will end like it did in Iraq, like it did in the Gulf War, like it did in Afghanistan, like it did in Vietnam. That's the plan now! And it's out in the open. It's not some pastor. That's the way we fight wars now.

I don't want to fight a war. I don't want to spend 20 years fighting a war, and have it end like Afghanistan. You and I both know, the United States of America, could -- could have gone in there, and we could have kicked Afghani's ass, and got out. But that's not what we do.

Because we now have to nation build. I don't want to nation build.

Have you noticed how much the world resents us?

Why does the world resent us. Well, for one thing, new information, we're giant hypocrites!

I always thought that Americans were good and gracious. And we were going over to help people.

You're not going over to help people, when you go into very, very religious countries, and say, hey, by the way. You want any of our aid, you have to have your kids aborted.

You have to have drag queen shows. You think they're going to like us, or resent us?

You think they're going to like us, when you -- when you say, oh, we don't torture. We're beyond that. We don't. We definitely tonight torture.

And then we ghost plane people? To a regime in Egypt, that we kept propped up forever? So they could torture people for us?

The policies of the last 100 years, don't work.

They don't work.

Stu said last hour. Glenn, you know, 45 percent of Republicans want the Ukrainian aid. And because I said, when are the Republicans going to listen to their base?

Well, it's fairly split. Fifty-five-45. Okay.

So I'll never be able to make the case, to the Lindsey Grahams of the world. Because I don't know Lindsey Graham. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen his bottom line. Is he rich from Raytheon?

I don't know. Or is he just a war hawk, that just wants war all the time because he actually believes it? I don't know. But I will tell you this: The world is changing. And if you don't recognize that, you are going to be left in the dust.

Now, everything is changing. And that's what everybody keeps telling you.

Well, the biggest thing that is changing is, our politicians are not following the Constitution. That's the root of all of our evils.

We are not following the Constitution of the United States. Congress is no longer in charge of the purse. Congress doesn't pass the laws. It's all left in the hands of bureaucrats. Who make all these little edicts. And all these little changes. And they turn this little dial by 10 percent. And this dial by 25 percent. And before you know it, you're a freaking slave.

And who do you go to?

It doesn't matter who you vote for. Because they don't make the laws anymore.

So you have a new Speaker of the House. What does he do?

He completely abandons everything. Because he said briefings now. Well, you know what, if they've changed you that much, I think you should brief the world.

I think you should brief the United States. I keep hearing how dangerous the world is. No crap!

Really?

It's dangerous. You think it's more dangerous since Joe Biden got in, or less dangerous?

It's been getting more and more dangerous, for the last 25 years. Why?

Because the last 25 years. The last 75 years, the State Department has been running everything. They don't care who the president is.

It started with the creation of Israel.

The State Department threatened, threatened the dually elected president of the United States. Harry Truman.

You're not going to make that statement. Yes, we are.

No, you're not.

I'm the president of the United States. So I will dictate policy. He beat them to the microphone.

That's the only reason. Why the state of Israel exists.

Because the dually elected president, who had the responsibility to set the pace, beat the State Department. And the Deep State, to the microphones.

So, yeah. We are changing.

And it is popularity to change, but Stu was right.

It is important for us to state why we're changing.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing, and expect different results. I could be here all day, giving you examples of this.

The fed. The fed comes up with a plan. It makes things worse. So we go back to the fed.

They make a plan. And it makes things worse.

So we go back to the fed. And they make a plan. And it makes things worse!

We need to protect ourselves. So we go to the Department of Homeland Security. And we lies rights. And things don't change.

So we go to the Homeland Security.

And we make changes, we're not protected. We lose more rights. And nothing changes.

Look, this is so simple, it's ridiculous. Nothing will change, unless something changes.

I say to that my kids all the time. Nothing will change, unless something changes. Dad, how come this keeps happening to me?

Because, nothing will change, unless something changes.

Unless you change. Unless you do something different, it's going to keep happening.

Everything in our country, we're losing more and more rights, and so what do we do?

We elect the same kind of people over and over again, and we lose more rights. And so we're like, yeah. Well, we need some more people.

And we hire the same kind of people. And we lies more rights. What's missing in this?

I was just in South Carolina. By the way, thank God South Carolina.

I mean, you didn't vote for George Washington.

You voted against the anti-slavery thing in the Declaration of Independence.

And you did start the Civil War. Can you get this one right?

And I think the answer is, yes.

I met with some of the leadership of South Carolina, the Freedom Caucus, and all the people standing.

And I asked every single one of them, look, can I get your endorsement.

I don't endorse anybody. But let me ask you this: Where do you stand on the Constitution.

And if they didn't say, it's everything. It's the root of everything I believe in. It's the only thing worth fighting for, I'm not interested.

And I will tell you, that the progress they're making in South Carolina, the bills that they have shut down and the Republicans hate them. Hate them.

How can you possibly make Mike Lee into an extremist?

Have you ever talked to Mike Lee? He's the furthest thing from an extremist. Mike is the most mild mannered, sweetheart of a guy, I've ever met.
He's so nice, he is so not throwing people under the bus. Ever.

He pisses me off, at times!

Because I'm like, stop it, you're making me look bad!

Because I don't have the restraint you do.

He's known, in the state, as an extremist.

How is that possible? He's so extreme, he says we should play by the rules. He's so extreme, he keeps checking this document, and going, oh, I can't do that. Because it's not in this. What document is it? It was a document of a revolution. It was a revolutionary -- it was a Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights! How can this guy be a radical!

It's time to change, gang. And it's not time, to have a Civil War. You should pray -- pray, that we don't have a Civil War.

Do you -- do you know what that's like? Do you know what that's like? Do you know what would happen?

We Balkanize. Do you know what your life is like?

You don't want any of that. Anybody who is like, it's time we -- we split up!

First of all, I ain't going anywhere. Because I'm not leaving my country. I'm not leaving my country.

Well, my country left me. No. You would be leaving. Because they have Washington, and all of the documents! I'm not leaving without the documents.

I didn't band everything that the monuments stand for. I am still for them.

I am not wearing a mask in public, because I'm not shouting death to America. You're not the revolutionary. You may have changed. But that's because you're waking up!

When you wake up, you start seeing, wow. This doesn't work.

Well, what doesn't work?

The Constitution? Or the people who are ignoring it.

RADIO

WATCH: Biden SAYS What the Media Falsely ACCUSED Trump Of

Remember when the media went nuts and accused Donald Trump of praising Nazis when he said there were “very fine people on both sides” of the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” rally (although he WASN’T referring to the neo-Nazis)? Well, President Biden just had his own “very fine people” moment. Glenn reviews how Biden’s answer to a question about anti-Semitic, pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia University was EXACTLY what the media accused Trump of. But yet, there’s no outrage… Glenn also reviews the message of a Jewish professor at Columbia who was barred from campus after his participation in a pro-Jewish rally.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I've learned from the president. That why focus on the negative?

Here's President Biden about what's going on in Columbia university.

Yesterday.

VOICE: End the anti-Semitic protests at college campuses.

VOICE: That's why I've set up a program. I also condemn voters who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians.

VOICE: Should the Columbia University president resign?

VOICE: I didn't know that.

GLENN: So wait a minute. Hang on. I think what I heard here was, you know, there's fine people on both sides.

STU: Very fine. I would call them very fine.

GLENN: Yeah. Very fine people on both sides. It's almost like what happened with Donald Trump. Except when Donald Trump said that, he was a Nazi. He was a Nazi sympathizer. He was reaching out to the Nazis.

Nowhere, do I read how he's a Nazi. That Biden is a Nazi. For saying the same thing about the same kind of people. They were calling for the death of Jews.

STU: It really is fascinating.

GLENN: It's fascinating.

STU: You pointed this out, just because you came on the air.

I can't believe the parallels.

It's exactly the same thing.

GLENN: It is!

STU: It's just a left-wing version, and I have listened to tons of coverage and watched a bunch of coverage on this, over the past 24 hours. And now that I think of it, the entire tone of the coverage was, there are very fine people on both sides.

GLENN: Very fine people on both sides.

STU: It's like, yes, some of these Jewish students have been walking down the street and being attacked.

You know, one woman said that she was trying to go to class. And someone came up to her with a sign that said, we hope Hamas comes here next.

GLENN: Oh.
STU: And then they went to a protester on the Palestinian side. Who said, look, we know there's been some bad incidents. We're here peacefully protesting. There's no question, as to whether that was appropriate to do. To cover. Because I don't remember, on let's say, during Charlottesville.

When they found people in the crowd, who are like, yeah. I don't know what these nut jobs with the Tiki torches are, I'm just here for the statue thing.

GLENN: You know, there's another case like that, that comes to mind.

STU: Really?

GLENN: It wasn't just Charlottesville.

STU: Thinking, calculating.

GLENN: Oh, January 6th.

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: I never heard anybody say, yeah. Well, there were grandmothers here. Nice people here. That's not what they were doing. There were some really bad people there. We should condemn them. But not the others. I don't remember that.

STU: No. I don't remember that either. There was 100,000 people at the speech. All of them seem to be painted with the very broad stroke. That's awful.

GLENN: That's weird.

You know who does that? Who used to love doing that?

Hitler. Yeah. He used to do that all the time.

STU: You went right to Hitler. Seeming, his ideals are living on today. And seeming in all these protests.

GLENN: You know, I'm not going to tolerate anymore people saying, oh, you know, you're bringing up Hitler. Of course, you're going right to Hitler. Hitler.

Yeah. Because you're saying exactly the same things, that Hitler said.

STU: You are basically quoting Mein Kampf in every one of these protests. It's not that crazy.

That's a fascinating.

GLENN: By the way, I hope Hamas comes here. What do you mean by that.

You want the rape? The killing, the slaughtering? The burning of children. The chopping off of heads.

Is that what you're looking for?

STU: A chant just yesterday of a long live October 7th.

I mean, maybe they just had something else going on that day on October 7th. We don't know. It could be anything.

GLENN: I think the press should find out. I think they could find somebody who said, no. We were just talking about that wonderful, wonderful concert that was happening.

Because there were good things that day. And some bad things.

STU: And a couple bad things. A couple thousands of individuals bad things.

GLENN: Yeah. You know what this looks like, at Columbia university.

Well, first of all, could I just play -- this guy was locked out of Columbia. He was an associate professor.

And he was locked out. From the campus. Because they were afraid. You know, it would get out of hand. So he was just standing on the street, in front of Columbia. And he was speaking. And I just -- I mean, want you to hear what he had to say. It was very radical. Very radical.

VOICE: I know you're afraid.

I know you're a victim. Bravery. Bravery is not, not being afraid. Bravery is showing up when you're afraid. That's what courage is about. Showing up. And you all showed up. And you will keep showing up. And next time you show up, bring a Jew friend. Bring five friends, bring ten friends. A Jewish and non-Jewish friends, we need to make the world understand that being Jewish in public is a safe thing. Right?

It shouldn't be something that is contested. We are not fighting just for the Jews. We are fighting -- we are fighting for everyone. We are fighting for the rights of African-Americans. We are fightings for the rights of Hispanics. We're fighting for the rights of women and LGBTQ and the trans community. We are fighting for everyone.

Because it always starts with the Jews, and it never ends with the Jews. So I am here for all of you.

GLENN: Boy, you could see why Columbia University locked him out of -- they deactivated his key card, so he couldn't get back into the university. Because he's an extremist, clearly.

STU: The hatred.

GLENN: But don't just take that as the entire movement. Because there are some very fine people on the other side. As well.

Let me take you way back into the time machine, of 1933.

New York City. In 1933. Hitler has come to power. The Nazis begin taking Jewish students, and speckle them. Dismissing the Jewish professors from the universities.

You're not German enough.

And the campuses across Germany. Nazis, and their sympathizers. They start burning the books. You know, written by Jews. And perceived enemies.

Including, what's weird.

On that list of books to burn, was a book by a -- a Columbia professor and anthropologist named Frank Boaz, but he was Jewish.

They had on their list, to make sure they burned his books in the universities, in Berlin.

Now, just months after the first book burnings, Columbia had a president, Nicholas Murray Butler. He welcomed hens Luther in. He was the German ambassador to the United States. And he said, you have to come to Morning Heights.

You crazy cats over there, you're being misunderstood.

You got to come over here. And then he told all of the students at Columbia.

I respect him. He deserves the greatest courtesy and respect.

Now, at the same time, Columbia was doing this.

Cambridge, the dean of the Harvard law school. He accepted an honorary free at the university of Berlin.

He was there over 1934. And he returns from a trip. And he -- he got that -- he got that special honor from Berlin.

And he -- he came back to assure people, there is no persecution of Jewish scholars or of Jews, happening in Germany.

You know, for those Jews who have lived in Germany for any length of time.

That's an odd thing to say. Butler, back in Columbia, responded, because there were some criticism on campus. The spectator, and other student groups. He had to respond to.

He emphasized that Columbia's relationships with the German universities, strictly academic. No political implications, at all.

And he then mocked the protests, that were standing up against the university, saying, hey. You know, there's bad things happening with Jews.

And he's like, this is just academic. This is academic -- we have nothing to do with any of the spooky stuff from the Nazis. And then he said, quote, may we next expect to be told, that we should not read Goethe's Faust, or listen to Wagner's Ring Cycle? Or study the picture galleries at Dresden? Because we so heartily disapprove of the present form of government in Germany?

Now, by the way, he was a long-time admirer of Benito Mussolini as well. And in 1934, he fired Jerome Klein. That's a weird name, isn't it? Klein. You know what I'm saying. Right?

So we know why he was fired. He was a young member of the fine arts faculty.

And he signed an appeal against the Luther invitation.

And he -- and he was fired.

Also, Robert Burke, a Columbia college student, he was expelled because he was participating in the 1936 book burning. And anti-Nazi picket on campus.

So you couldn't picket the Nazis.

You know.

But you could go to the big rally, at Madison Square Garden.

Held by the Nazis.

They loved that.

That was great. So what I think I'm trying to say is, why are we surprised

Why are we surprised?

Harvard was disturbing as well.

There was a warm welcome extended to Ernst Hanfstaengl.

Earnest Hanfstaengl here. Yeah.

He was -- he came to the commencement in 1934.

He was a Nazi leader. Good, good, close personal friend of Hitler. And Harvard, well, a lot of people were like, hey, Mr. Hanfstaengl maybe shouldn't be here, yeah.

Harvard, they loved it. The students loved it. The faculty. They were delighted.

In fact, the president of Harvard wrote, it's trillion shameful. It's truly shameful, that -- the -- the -- the most prestigious, prominent university is coming under attack. You know.

For this. Now, they're just trying to influence young minds. And, you know, we're not for the Germans, but we're not not for the Germans either. Isn't that right, Mr. Hanfstaengl?

Here's the problem: I can't believe in 2008, I said several times, the hatreds of the past, that we saw in the 1930s are going to come back with a vengeance.

We are going to see the same things that happened in Europe, in the 1930s, happening on our streets.

And if we don't stand up and stop it, if we don't choose to be -- to never forget, never again is the promise we made to each other.

We're going to make the Nazis. With our technology. We will make the Nazis look like rookies.

It's up to America now, to decide.

I personally think, I haven't spoken to Mr.Hanfstaengl.

But I personally think Jesus is coming.

Kind of soon. Probably.

STU: Glenn, there are very fine Hanfstaengls on both sides.

GLENN: On both sides, really? So there were the kill the Jews Hanfstaengls, and then the, eh Hanfstaengls.

STU: Hanfstaengls. Yes. You've got it. You've heard this story.

GLENN: Yeah, okay.

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