GLENNMarch 09, 2017

4 Steps to Break Down Walls From a Former Westboro Baptist Church Member

Megan Phelps-Roper, who grew up indoctrinated with hatred in the Westboro Baptist Church, left the church in 2012 after what can only be described as an awakening.

"She left the church a while ago, and recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world," Co-host Stu Burguiere said Thursday on The Glenn Beck Program.

Interestingly, Phelps-Roper's conversion began in the hateful universe of social media, where she encountered a pattern that repeated during her 144-character conversations on Twitter.

Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

Concerned with the current state of division in the country, Phelps-Roger has identified four steps on how to approach people with different ideas, especially on social media platforms:

1. Don't assume bad intent

2. Ask honest questions

3. Stay calm

4. Make the argument, explain

"If you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. Unfortunately, most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop, but we're all being led to believe that nothing will ever change with the other side," Glenn said. "That's a lie, and she's proof positive of that lie."

Listen to this segment from The Glenn Beck Program:

GLENN: I want to get to the media bias and American kids. Can they spot fake news stories? Can they spot bias? We'll give that to you here in just a second.

STU: So Megan Phelps-Roper. She was in the Westboro Baptist Church. So Phelps is the name.

GLENN: Right.

STU: Fred Phelps was the head guy.

GLENN: Is she -- is she a child of?

STU: No, I think she's married.

GLENN: Okay. So she was a child of Fred?

STU: Yeah. She grew up in -- or, it might be grandchild of Fred. Fred is -- I could be --

GLENN: Have we lost him?

STU: He's very old. I don't know if we lost him. I don't keep up with every iteration of what goes on in the Westboro Baptist Church. But I do find it a fascinating topic, in that it's -- they're just so crazy. And to see -- if you don't know who they are, they're the people that go and protest military funerals. They say God hates Jews and gays.

GLENN: All kinds of stuff. Really bad.

STU: You know, they're the worst part of every news story, basically.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: They come out -- gosh, this is a tragedy. Now it's worse. They're able to do it every single time.

GLENN: Right. Right. Right.

STU: So she grew up -- and, you know, I know we had someone who left the Westboro Baptist Church a long time ago. And I can't remember if it was her or if it was someone else because a couple people have left. But almost everybody at the Westboro Baptist Church is from the Phelps family. It's like 80 percent Phelps family members.

GLENN: Boy.

STU: So she left the church a while ago. And recently did a TED talk on why she left and how it happened. And it's fascinating because, I mean, there are parts of it that sounds like she's just lifting lines from Glenn Beck about how to deal with the world. Now, you might not want to be associated with someone who is in the Westboro Baptist Church --

GLENN: But she's out of the Westboro Baptist Church.

STU: She's out --

GLENN: She's out and she's talking about why she left. And for everybody who says, "Well, you don't -- the left won't listen." Let's listen to how the woman -- do you think the left is less extreme than the Westboro Baptist Church?

STU: If you could communicate with someone like that and break down those walls, you could do it with anybody.

GLENN: And listen to what she said. How it was done. Listen to this.

MEGAN: In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter. Initially, the people I encountered on the platform were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes I had been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible versus, pop culture references, and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil. Full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

How had the other come to such outrageous conclusions about the world?

Sometimes the conversation even bled into real life. People I had sparred with on Twitter would come out to the picket line to see me when I protested in their city.

A man named David was one such person. He ran a blog called Jewlicious. And after several months of heated, but friendly arguments online, he came out to see me at a picket in New Orleans. He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert from Jerusalem, where he lives. And I brought him kosher chocolate and held a "God hates Jews" sign. There was no confusion about our positions, but the line between friend and foe was becoming blurred. And it changed the way we spoke to one another. It took time, but eventually these conversations planted seeds of doubt in me.

GLENN: Now, imagine how many Jewish friends this guy had who said, what, are you selling out? Don't you know she's using you? Don't you know, you're being pulled in? You're a sellout. You've got to stand against.

How many people she had in her life saying the same thing. But they both were being civil to each other. And -- and probably everyone in their life said, "It's not going to change anything." And look what happened. Do you have another cut from her?

PAT: Yeah.

STU: If you can win over the Westboro Baptist Church -- and she went on later. Something you said a million times. She said, the conversations always started, and neither of us changed our positions.

GLENN: Yep.

STU: Neither of us changed our principles. It wasn't -- it was just listening. You don't have to change your ideas. It was listening and communicating like your -- your friend.

GLENN: And then start talking about families and things you have in common.

STU: Yeah. And it helped, I mean, win over a Westboro Baptist Church member. And to the extent of how crazy that would be -- because you think of these people, I mean, they're obviously crazy.

GLENN: I mean, God hates Jews. God hates gays. I mean, you can't think of people who are more off their rocker than this --

PAT: She goes into that.

STU: Yeah. And to talk about how indoctrinated she was. She talks at the very beginning of this that the first protest she went to, she was five years old, protesting gays somewhere. Holding a sign she couldn't even read.

PAT: Uh-huh.

GLENN: Wow.

STU: That's how deeply she was in this. And she goes through this entire process. And through Twitter -- we think of all these good people being turned bad through Twitter. Here's someone who went through Twitter and turned her life from pure evil to something else.

MEGAN: My friends on Twitter took the time to understand Westboro's doctrines. And in doing so, they were able to find inconsistencies I had missed my entire life. Why did we advocate the death penalty for gays when Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? How could we claim to love our neighbor, while at the same time praying for God to destroy them?

The truth is that the care shown to me by these strangers on the internet was itself a contradiction. It was growing evidence that people on the other side were not the demons I had been led to believe.

These realizations were life-altering. Once I saw that we were not the ultimate arbiters of devine truth, but flawed human beings, I couldn't pretend otherwise. I couldn't justify our actions, especially our cruel practice of protesting funerals and celebrating human tragedy.

GLENN: Okay. Stop here for a second. Let's just put this together. Both sides have this problem. Both sides in one way or another is the Westboro Baptist Church. Both left and right. We have extremists on both sides.

But let's just think of -- for this audience, let's just think of the right -- or, the left thinks they're the arbiter of everything that is true. They're the -- we're not science deniers. We're not that way. You're the science denier.

Well, you aren't educated. We are educated. We have all the universities. They believe that everything intellectually is on their side. Right? So they're morally superior. They don't see the -- the disconnect between saying, let's march for women and yesterday, while this was going on, they were advocating -- the left was advocating and going against the CDC, saying, women are protesting the CDC because you men can't tell us not to drink during our pregnancy.

Well, I agree that we can't tell you what to do. That's your decision. But that doesn't seem like something you later in life will be proud of standing and marching for.

It doesn't seem logical, to me, that when all is said and done, you'll be proud that you marched for abortion for the killing of children. That at some point in your life, you, or most, I believe, will come to the determination that, you know, that is a child. Because there's no way. Because of science. It's going to force you. I'm not the science denier. You're the one that says, I don't want a scan. I don't want an ultrasound to happen. And give the women a chance to say, oh, my gosh, it is a child. If they have that scan and they say, I don't care. Well, that's a different subject.

But you have to admit that that is a child; otherwise, why would you say no to ultrasounds?

Which one of us is in this bubble? Now, I'm only using this side because both sides are in a bubble. But anybody who says that they cannot reach the left, you're -- listen to what she just said. It was by kindness on the internet, first. Kindness of not slamming back.

Because the left does see the right as a monster, just like many on the right see the left as a monster. They're not.

We're not. We disagree on things. And we ratchet it up because we're screaming at each other. But if we'll just start talking -- and better yet, listening. Listening first. To one another. You will find what I have found, wow, we have a ton in common.

Now, it's not going to change everything overnight. People say to me all the time, yeah, well, who have you changed? Well, nobody. But I will tell you, look how many people from the left have been on this show. Just two days ago, we had somebody on the left who said, you know what, I changed my mind. I'm actually not on the left. I'm on the right. And I was die-hard on the left. And now I've changed. So while I haven't personally done it, I think it is happening.

And if you want to make it happen, she's giving you the recipe. And it's Martin Luther King's recipe. And unfortunately most of our society is siding with Malcolm X. Most of us want the anger and hate and rage. We all want it to stop. But we're all being led to be convince that had nothing will ever change with the other side.

And so it's of no use. That's a lie. And she's proof positive of that lie. At least I think so.

STU: At the most extreme level. If this isn't a proof of concept, I don't know what is.

[break]

GLENN: Craziest elections, our series continues in just a few minutes. Also, we want to talk to you a little bit about Obamacare. And Stu wants to give us the four steps that this woman from the Westboro Baptist Church said got me out of the church.

STU: Yeah, she identified these. Which I thought were interesting. One, don't assume bad intent. And that's something I like to use on social networks. Because it makes your -- it just makes your life better. You know, if you're constantly getting in fights with people, it's just annoying. And I've -- because people will insult you. Like I insult Jeffy all the time, and he knows it comes from a good place.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: But that's how I look at everybody who calls me Hitler on the internet.

PAT: They mean it in a nice way?

STU: They mean it in a joking way. And I just treat it that way. And I don't care. It makes me feel better.

GLENN: You know what, a lot of times I'll see people online. They'll say something like, you know, you're so mean to Glenn. And blah, blah. You know, the one defender. Blah, blah, blah. And they'll be like, no, I'm a big fan of the show. I was joking.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And so if you don't assume bad intent, it saves you a lot of angst.

STU: Yeah. And it also means you never get pissed off at the internet.

GLENN: Yes.

STU: So many people get obsessed in these little battles. They never bother me. I never care what you say about me. If you go with that principle, just don't assume it's bad. All these interactions wind up being better. And many times, by the way, you turn people around. There's people who are fans of the show that didn't like some things we said. They came out, they call us all sorts of names. If you respond nicely, typically they'll just turn around --

PAT: Yeah. I'm having a hard time finding the rainbow in all of that, during the election. When they were saying things like eat crap and die, I didn't think that was necessarily good-natured.

GLENN: But I will tell you -- I gave up. It was overwhelming at the time. But I will tell you, a lot of people will say, you know what, you're right. I'm sorry. I flew off the handle. I don't agree with you. But I appreciate it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: Step two. Ask questions. So that's a great thing to do.

PAT: Even the very existence of God. For if there be a God, he must surely rather --

GLENN: Shut up.

STU: But I mean, asking questions is important. And honest ones. Right? It's not just like trying to come up with a point and just saying what you believe and pushing other people. And then asking questions that aren't honest.

GLENN: Don't ask a question that you know the answer too.

PAT: Just trying to set people up.

GLENN: And you're just trying to trap people into it.

PAT: Yeah.

STU: This one is very difficult for a lot of people. But if you do the other two, you can do this one, which is stay calm.

You know, the person who you're going up against in an argument, especially from the other side are going to say terrible things about it, why let it bother you? That's you. That's not them. That's you letting it bother you. You're making the choice to allow it to bother you. If you stay calm and don't let it bother you, you're able to kind of reason your way through the argument.

PAT: How amazing is it that this is coming from a Phelps -- the granddaughter of Fred Phelps, the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. This is astounding.

STU: Yeah, because it worked on her to get her out.

PAT: That is really amazing. She and her sister both got out.

STU: Yeah. It might have been her sister --

PAT: It might have been her sister Grace we talked to. I think so.

STU: We should see if she'll come on too. Because it's great.

And the last one is make the argument. Which that one didn't strike me as obvious when I was listening to that list. But if you're in a battle with someone on the left or you're in a battle with someone who is nuts and you're trying to actually persuade them, a lot of times I think because we believe, for example, low taxes are the right thing to do or abortion is wrong or whatever the belief is, it's so apparent to us, we treat it as if it's doctrine to everybody. And we don't bother to walk people through the step by step argument of how you actually get there. So many people have -- they start at their arrival point. I'm young. I'm in college. I'm a liberal. I'm a leftist, I love abortion.

PAT: Uh-huh.

STU: And the process very well may not have ever happened, where they made that decision organically. Where they walked through the steps in their head.

GLENN: You know, I got to get to the survey. The survey shows that most people -- and this includes teens -- and I will narrow it down to teens. But most people get their money from a friend, or I blog. A commentator of some sort. They haven't done the thinking. They get the opinion from someone else who may or may not have done all of the thinking themselves.

STU: Take the time to actually make the argument when you're talking to someone. Calmly. Don't assume their bad intent. You follow those few steps -- you're not going to win everybody over, nor should you care --

GLENN: Isn't it interesting, you're on the bandwagon.

PAT: I've been on the band freaking wagon. I brought these clips to the show.

GLENN: Listen to him now.

STU: Stay calm! That's all I'm saying. Stay calm!

GLENN: I'm assuming bad intent.

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST

How to Find God in a Divided World | Max Lucado & Glenn Beck

Glenn Beck sits down with beloved pastor and author Max Lucado for a deep conversation about faith, humility, and finding unity in a divided world. Together, they reflect on the importance of principles over politics, why humility opens the door to true dialogue, and how centering life on God brings clarity and peace. Lucado shares stories of faith, the dangers of a “prosperity gospel,” and the powerful reminder that life is not about making a big deal of ourselves, but about making a big deal of God. This uplifting conversation will inspire you to re-center your life, strengthen your faith, and see how humility and love can transform even the most divided times.

Watch Glenn Beck's FULL Interview with Max Lucado HERE

RADIO

Confronting evil: Bill O'Reilly's insight on Charlie Kirk's enduring legacy

Bill O’Reilly joins Glenn Beck with a powerful prediction about Charlie Kirk’s legacy. Evil tried to destroy his movement, Bill says, but – as his new book, “Confronting Evil,” lays out – evil will just end up destroying itself once more…

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Mr. Bill O'Reilly, welcome to the program, how are you, sir?

BILL: Good, Beck, thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. How have you been?

GLENN: Last week was really tough. I know it was tough for you and everybody else.

But, you know -- I haven't -- I haven't seen anything.

BILL: Family okay? All of that?

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. Family is okay. Family is okay.

BILL: Good question good. That's the most important thing.

GLENN: It is.

So, Bill, what do you make of this whole Charlie Kirk thing. What happened, and where are we headed?

BILL: So my analysis is different for everybody else, and those that know me for so long. About a year ago, I was looking for a topic -- it was a contract to do another book. And I said, you know what's happening in America, and around the world. Was a rise in evil. It takes a year to research and write these books.

And not since the 1930s, had I seen that happen, to this extent. And in the 1930s, of course, you would have Tojo and Hitler and Mussolini and Franco and all these guys. And it led to 100 million dead in World War II. The same thing, not to the extent.

But the same thing was --
GLENN: Yet.
BILL: -- bubbling in the world, and in the United States.

I decided to write a book. The book comes out last Tuesday. And on Wednesday, Putin lobs missiles into Poland.

Ultra dangerous.

And a few hours later, Charlie Kirk is assassinated.

And one of the interviewers said to me last week, your -- your book is haunting. Is haunting.

And I think that's extremely accurate. Because that's what evil does.

And in the United States, we have so many distractions. The social media.

People create around their own lives.

Sports. Whatever it may be. That we look away.

Now, Charlie Kirk was an interesting fellow. Because at a very young age, he was mature enough to understand that he wanted to take a stand in favor of traditional America and Judeo Christian philosophy.

He decided that he wanted to do that.

You know, and when I was 31 or whatever, I was lucky I wasn't in the penitentiary. And I believe you were in the penitentiary.
(laughter)
So he was light years ahead of us.

GLENN: Yes, he was.

BILL: And he put it into motion. All right? Now, most good people, even if you disagree with what Mr. Kirk says on occasion, you admire that. That's the spirit of America. That you have a belief system, that you go out and try to promote that belief system, for the greater good of the country. That's what it is.

That's what Charlie Kirk did.

And he lost his life.

By doing it!

So when you essentially break all of this down. You take the emotion away, all right?

Which I have to do, in my job. You see it as another victory for evil.

But it really isn't.

And this is the ongoing story.

This is the most important story. So when you read my book, Confronting Evil, you'll see that all of these heinous individuals, Putin's on the cover. Mao. Hitler.

Ayatollah Khomeini. And then there are 14 others inside the book. They all destroy themselves.

Evil always destroys itself. But it takes so many people with it. So this shooter destroyed his own family.

And -- and Donald Trump, I talked to him about it last week in Yankee stadium. And Trump is a much different guy than most people think.

GLENN: He is.

JASON: He destroyed his own mother and father and his two brothers.

That's what he did. In addition to the Kirk family!

So evil spreads. Now, if Americans pay attention and come to the conclusion that I just stated, it will be much more difficult for evil to operate openly.

And that's what I think is going to happen.

There's going to be a ferocious backlash against the progressive left in particular.

To stop it, and I believe that is what Mr. Kirk's legacy is going to be.

GLENN: I -- I agree with you on all of these fronts.

I wonder though, you know, it took three, or if you count JFK, four assassinations in the '60s, to confront the evil if you will.

Before people really woke up and said, enough is enough!

And then you have the big Jesus revolution after that.

Is -- I hate to say this. But is -- as far gone as we are, is one assassination enough to wake people up?

JOHN: Some people. Some people will never wake up.

They just don't want to live in the real world, Beck. And it's never been easier to do that with the social media and the phones and the computers.

And you're never going to get them back.

But you don't need them. So let's just be very realistic here on the Glenn Beck show.

Let's run it down.

The corporate media is finished.

In America. It's over.

And you will see that play out the next five years.

Because the corporate media invested so much of its credibility into hating Donald Trump.

And the hate is the key word.

You will find this interesting, Beck. For the first time in ten years, I've been invited to do a major thing on CBS, today.

I will do it GE today. With major Garrett.

GLENN: Wow.

BILL: Now, that only happened because Skydance bought CBS. And Skydance understands the brand CBS is over, and they will have to rehabilitate the whole thing. NBC has not come to that conclusion yet, but it will have to.

And ABC just does the weather. I mean, that's all they care about. Is it snowing in Montana? Okay? The cables are all finished. Even Fox.

Once Trump leaves the stage, there's nowhere for FNC to go. Because they've invested so much in Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.

So the fact of the matter is, the corporate media is over in America. That takes a huge cudgel out of the hands of the progressive movement.

Because the progressive movement was dependent on the corporate media to advance its cause. That's going to end, Beck.

GLENN: Well, I would hope that you're right.

Let me ask you about --

BILL: When am I wrong?

When am I wrong?

You've known me for 55 years. When have I been wrong?

GLENN: Okay. All right. All right. We're not here to argue things like that.

So tell me about Skydance. Because isn't Skydance Chinese?

BILL: No! It's Ellison. Larry Ellison, the second richest guy in the world. He owns Lanai and Hawaii, the big tech guy and his son is running it.

GLENN: Yeah, okay.

I though Skydance. I thought that was -- you know them.

BILL: Yeah.

And they -- they're not ideological, but they were as appalled as most of us who pay attention at the deterioration of the network presentations.

So --

GLENN: You think that they could.

BILL: 60 Minutes used to be the gold standard.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

BILL: And it just -- it -- you know, you know, I don't know if you watch it anymore.

GLENN: I don't either.

So do you think they can actually turn CBS around, or is it just over?

BILL: I don't know. It's very hard to predict, because so many people now bail. I've got a daughter 26, and a son, 22.

They never, ever watched network television.

And you've got -- it's true. Right?

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah.

They don't watch --

BILL: They're not going to watch The Voice. The dancing with this. The juggling with that. You know, I think they could do a much better job in their news presentations.

GLENN: Yeah. Right.

BILL: Because what they did, is banish people like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly.

Same voices, with huge followings.

Huge!

All right?

We couldn't get on there.

That's why Colbert got fired. Because Colbert wouldn't -- refused to put on any non-progressive voice, when they were talking about the country.

GLENN: I know.

BILL: Well, it's not -- I'm censoring it.

GLENN: Yeah, but it's not that he was fired because he wouldn't do that. He was fired because that led to horrible ratings. Horrible ratings.

BILL: Yes, it was his defiance.

GLENN: Yes.

BILL: Fallon has terrible ratings and so does Kimmel. But Colbert was in your face, F you, to the people who were signing his paycheck.

GLENN: Yes. Yes.

BILL: Look, evil can only exist if the mechanisms of power are behind it.

And that's when you read the front -- I take them one by one. And Putin is the most important chapter by far.

GLENN: Why?

BILL: Because Putin would use nuclear weapon.

He wouldn't. He's a psychopath.

And I'm -- on Thursday night, I got a call from the president's people saying, would I meet the president at Yankee stadium for the 9/11 game?

And I said, when a president calls and asks you to meet them, sure.

GLENN: I'll be there. What time?

BILL: It will take me three days to get into Yankee stadium, on Long Island. But I'll start now.

GLENN: Especially because the president is coming. But go ahead.

BILL: Anyway, that was a very, I think that Mr. Trump values my opinion. And it was -- we did talk about Putin.

And the change in Putin. And I had warned him, that Putin had changed from the first administration, where Trump controlled Putin to some extent.

Now he's out of control. Because that's what always happens.

GLENN: Yeah.

BILL: It happened with Hitler. It happened with Mao. It happened with the ayatollah. It happened with Stalin. Right now. They get worse and worse and worse and worse. And then they blow up.

And that's where Putin is! But he couldn't do any of that, without the assent of the Russian people. They are allowing him to do this, to kill women and children. A million Russian casualties for what! For what! Okay?

So that's why this book is just in the stratosphere. And I was thinking object, oh. Because people want to understand evil, finally. Finally.

They're taking a hard look at it, and the Charlie Kirk assassination was an impetus to do that.

GLENN: Yeah. And I think it's also an impetus to look at the good side.

I mean, I think Charlie was just not a neutral -- a neutral character. He was a force for good. And for God.

And I think that -- that combination is almost the Martin Luther King combination. Where you have a guy who is speaking up for civil rights.

But then also, speaking up for God. And speaking truth, Scripturally.

And I think that combination still, strangely, I wouldn't have predicted it. But strangely still works here in America, and I think it's changed everything.

Bill, it's always food to talk to you. Thank you so much for being on. I appreciate it.

It's Bill O'Reilly. The name of the book, you don't want to miss. Is confronting evil. And he takes all of these really, really bad guys on. One by one. And shows you, what happens if you don't do something about it. Confronting evil. Bill O'Reilly.

And you can find it at BillO'Reilly.com.

RADIO

Should people CELEBRATING Charlie Kirk’s death be fired?

There’s a big difference between firing someone, like a teacher, for believing children shouldn’t undergo trans surgery and firing a teacher who celebrated the murder of Charlie Kirk. Glenn Beck explains why the latter is NOT “cancel culture.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I got an email from somebody that says, Glenn, in the wake of Charlie's assassination, dozens of teachers, professors and professionals are being suspended or fired for mocking, or even celebrating Charlie Kirk's death.

Critics say conservatives are now being hypocritical because you oppose cancel culture. But is this the same as rose an losing her job over a crude joke. Or is it celebrating murder, and that's something more serious?

For many, this isn't about cancellation it's about trust. If a teacher is entrusted with children or a doctor entrusted with patients, publicly celebrates political violence, have they not yet disqualified themselves from those roles? Words matter. But cheering a death is an action. Is there any consequence for this? Yes. There is.

So let's have that conversation here for a second.

Is every -- is every speech controversy the same?

The answer to that is clearly no.

I mean, we've seen teachers and pastors and doctors and ordinary citizens lose their job now, just for saying they don't believe children under 18 should undergo transgender surgeries. Okay? Lost their job. Chased out.

That opinion, whether you agree or disagree is a moral and medical judgment.

And it is a matter of policy debate. It is speech in the public square.

I have a right to say, you're mutilating children. Okay. You have a right to say, no. We're not. This is the best practices. And then we can get into the silences of it. And we don't shout down the other side.

Okay? Now, on the other hand, you have Charlie Kirk's assassination. And we've seen teachers and professors go online and be celebrate.

Not criticize. Not argue policy. But celebrate that someone was murdered.

Some have gone so far and said, it's not a tragedy. It's a victory. Somebody else, another professor said, you reap what you sow.

Well, let me ask you: Are these two categories of free speech the same?

No! They're not.

Here's the difference. To say, I believe children should not be allowed to have gender surgeries, before 18. That is an attempt, right or wrong. It doesn't matter which side you are.

That is an attempt to protect life. Protect children. And guide society.

It's entering the debate about the role of medicine. The right of parents. And the boundaries of childhood. That's what that is about. To say Charlie Kirk's assassination is a good thing, that's not a debate. That's not even an idea. That's rejoicing in violence. It's glorifying death.

There's no place in a civil society for that kind of stuff. There's not. And it's a difference that actually matters.

You know, our Founders fought for free speech because they believed as Jefferson said, that air can be tolerated where truth is left free to combat it.

So I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, at all. I don't think you do either. I hope you don't. Otherwise, you should go back to read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Error can be tolerated where truth is left to be free to combat it.

But when speech shifts from debating ideas to celebrating death, doesn't that cease to be the pursuit of truth and instead, just become a glorification of evil?

I know where I stand on that one. Where do you stand?

I mean, if you go back and you look at history, in colonial matter -- in colonial America, if you were to go against the parliament and against the king, those words were dangerous. They were called treason. But they were whys. They were arguments about liberty and taxation and the rights of man.

And the Founders risked their lives against the dictator to say those things.

Now, compare that to France in 1793.

You Thomas Paine, one of or -- one of our founder kind of. On the edges of our founders.

He thought that what was happening in France is exactly like the American Revolution.

Washington -- no. It wasn't.

There the crowds. They didn't gather to argue. Okay? They argued to cheer the guillotine they didn't want the battle of ideas.

They wanted blood. They wanted heads to roll.

And roll they did. You know, until the people who were screaming for the heads to roll, shouted for blood, found that their own heads were rolling.

Then they turned around on that one pretty quickly.

Think of Rome.

Cicero begged his countrymen to preserve the republic through reason, law, and debate. Then what happened?

The mob started cheering assassinations.

They rejoiced that enemies were slaughtered.

They were being fed to the lions.

And the republic fell into empire.

And liberty was lost!

Okay. So now let me bring this back to Charlie Kirk here for a second.

If there's a professor that says, I don't believe children should have surgeries before adulthood, is that cancel culture, when they're fired?

Yes! Yes, it is.

Because that is speech this pursuit of truth.

However imperfect, it is speech meant to protect children, not to harm them. You also cannot be fired for saying, I disagree with that.

If you are telling, I disagree with that. And I will do anything to shut you down including assassination! Well, then, that's a different story.

What I teacher says, I'm glad Charlie Kirk is dead, is that cancel culture, if they're fired?

Or is that just society saying, you know, I don't think I can trust my kid to -- to that guy.

Or that woman.

I know, that's not an enlightening mind.

Somebody who delights in political murder.

I don't want them around my children! Scripture weighs in here too.

Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. Matthew.

What does it reveal about the heart of a teacher who celebrates assassination?

To me, you go back to Scripture. Whoa unto them that call good evil -- evil good and good evil.

A society that will shrug on speech like this, say society that has lost its moral compass.

And I believe we still have a moral compass.

Now, our free speech law doesn't protect both. Absolutely. Under law. Absolutely.

Neither one of them should go to jail.

Neither should be silenced by the state.

But does trust survive both?

Can a parent trust their child to a teacher who is celebrating death?

I think no. I don't think a teacher can be trusted if they think that the children that it's right for children to see strippers in first grade!

I'm sorry. It's beyond reason. You should not be around my children!

But you shouldn't go to jail for that. Don't we, as a society have a right to demand virtue, in positions of authority?

Yes.

But the political class and honestly, the educational class, does everything they can to say, that doesn't matter.

But it does. And we're seeing it now. The line between cancel and culture, the -- the cancellation of people, and the accountability of people in our culture, it's not easy.

Except here. I think it is easy.

Cancel culture is about challenging the orthodoxy. Opinions about faith, morality, biology.
Accountability comes when speech reveals somebody's heart.

Accountability comes when you're like, you are a monster! You are celebrating violence. You're mocking life itself. One is an argument. The other is an abandonment of humanity. The Constitution, so you understand, protects both.

But we as a culture can decide, what kind of voices would shape our children? Heal our sick. Lead our communities?

I'm sorry, if you're in a position of trust, I think it's absolutely right for the culture to say, no!

No. You should not -- because this is not policy debate. This is celebrating death.

You know, our Founders gave us liberty.

And, you know, the big thing was, can you keep it?

Well, how do you keep it? Virtue. Virtue.

Liberty without virtue is suicide!

So if anybody is making this case to you, that this is cancel culture. I just want you to ask them this question.

Which do you want to defend?

Cancel culture that silences debate. Or a culture that still knows the difference between debating ideas and celebrating death.

Which one?

RADIO

Shocking train video: Passengers wait while woman bleeds out

Surveillance footage of the murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska in Charlotte, NC, reveals that the other passengers on the train took a long time to help her. Glenn, Stu, and Jason debate whether they were right or wrong to do so.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: You know, I'm -- I'm torn on how I feel about the people on the train.

Because my first instinct is, they did nothing! They did nothing! Then my -- well, sit down and, you know -- you know, you're going to be judged. So be careful on judging others.

What would I have done? What would I want my wife to do in that situation?

STU: Yeah. Are those two different questions, by the way.

GLENN: Yeah, they are.

STU: I think they go far apart from each other. What would I want myself to do. I mean, it's tough to put yourself in a situation. It's very easy to watch a video on the internet and talk about your heroism. Everybody can do that very easily on Twitter. And everybody is.

You know, when you're in a vehicle that doesn't have an exit with a guy who just murdered somebody in front of you, and has a dripping blood off of a knife that's standing 10 feet away from you, 15 feet away from you.

There's probably a different standard there, that we should all kind of consider. And maybe give a little grace to what I saw at least was a woman, sitting across the -- the -- the aisle.

I think there is a difference there. But when you talk about that question. Those two questions are definitive.

You know, I know what I would want myself to do. I would hope I would act in a way that didn't completely embarrass myself afterward.

But I also think, when I'm thinking of my wife. My advice to my wife would not be to jump into the middle of that situation at all costs. She might do that anyway. She actually is a heck of a lot stronger than I am.

But she might do it anyway.

GLENN: How pathetic, but how true.

STU: Yes. But that would not be my advice to her.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: Now, maybe once the guy has certainly -- is out of the area. And you don't think the moment you step into that situation. He will turn around and kill you too. Then, of course, obviously. Anything you can do to step in.

Not that there was much anyone on the train could do.

I mean, I don't think there was an outcome change, no matter what anyone on that train did.

Unfortunately.

But would I want her to step in?

Of course. If she felt she was safe, yes.

Think about, you said, your wife. Think about your daughter. Your daughter is on that train, just watching someone else getting murdered like that. Would you advise your daughter to jump into a situation like that?

That girl sitting across the aisle was somebody's daughter. I don't know, man.

JASON: I would. You know, as a dad, would I advise.

Hmm. No.

As a human being, would I hope that my daughter or my wife or that I would get up and at least comfort that woman while she's dying on the floor of a train?

Yeah.

I would hope that my daughter, my son, that I would -- and, you know, I have more confidence in my son or daughter or my wife doing something courageous more than I would.

But, you know, I think I have a more realistic picture of myself than anybody else.

And I'm not sure that -- I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. I know what I would hope I would do. But I also know what I fear I would do. But I would have hoped that I would have gotten up and at least tried to help her. You know, help her up off the floor. At least be there with her, as she's seeing her life, you know, spill out in under a minute.

And that's it other thing we have to keep in mind. This all happened so rapidly.

A minute is -- will seem like a very long period of time in that situation. But it's a very short period of time in real life.

STU: Yeah. You watch the video, Glenn. You know, I don't need the video to -- to change my -- my position on this.

But at his seem like there was a -- someone who did get there, eventually, to help, right? I saw someone seemingly trying to put pressure on her neck.

GLENN: Yeah. And tried to give her CPR.

STU: You know, no hope at that point. How long of a time period would you say that was?

Do you know off the top of your head?

GLENN: I don't know. I don't know. I know that we watched the video that I saw. I haven't seen past 30 seconds after she --

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: -- is down. And, you know, for 30 seconds nothing is happening. You know, that is -- that is not a very long period of time.

STU: Right.

GLENN: In reality.

STU: And especially, I saw the pace he was walking. He certainly can't be -- you know, he may have left the actual train car by 30 seconds to a minute. But he wasn't that far away. Like he was still in visual.

He could still turn around and look and see what's going on at that point. So certainly still a threat is my point. He has not, like, left the area. This is not that type of situation.

You know, I -- look, as you point out, I think if I could be super duper sexist for a moment here, sort of my dividing line might just be men and women.

You know, I don't know if it's that a -- you're not supposed to say that, I suppose these days. But, like, there is a difference there. If I'm a man, you know, I would be -- I would want my son to jump in on that, I suppose. I don't know if he could do anything about it. But you would expect at least a grown man to be able to go in there and do something about it. A woman, you know, I don't know.

Maybe I'm -- I hope --

GLENN: Here's the thing I -- here's the thing that I -- that causes me to say, no. You should have jumped in.

And that is, you know, you've already killed one person on the train. So you've proven that you're a killer. And anybody who would have screamed and got up and was with her, she's dying. She's dying. Get him. Get him.

Then the whole train is responsible for stopping that guy. You know. And if you don't stop him, after he's killed one person, if you're not all as members of that train, if you're not stopping him, you know, the person at the side of that girl would be the least likely to be killed. It would be the ones that are standing you up and trying to stop him from getting back to your daughter or your wife or you.

JASON: There was a -- speaking of men and women and their roles in this. There was a video circling social media yesterday. In Sweden. There was a group of officials up on a stage. And one of the main. I think it was health official woman collapses on stage. Completely passes out.

All the men kind of look away. Or I don't know if they're looking away. Or pretending that they didn't know what was going on. There was another woman standing directly behind the woman passed out.

Immediately springs into action. Jumps on top. Grabs her pant leg. Grabs her shoulder. Spins her over and starts providing care.

What did she have that the other guys did not? Or women?

She was a sheepdog. There is a -- this is my issue. And I completely agree with Stu. I completely agree with you. There's some people that do not respond this way. My issue is the proportion of sheepdogs versus people that don't really know how to act. That is diminishing in western society. And American society.

We see it all the time in these critical actions. I mean, circumstances.

There are men and women, and it's actually a meme. That fantasize about hoards of people coming to attack their home and family. And they sit there and say, I've got it. You guys go. I'm staying behind, while I smoke my cigarette and wait for the hoards to come, because I will sacrifice myself. There are men and women that fantasize of block my highway. Go ahead. Block my highway. I'm going to do something about it. They fantasize about someone holding up -- not a liquor store. A convenience store or something. Because they will step in and do something. My issue now is that proportion of sheepdogs in society is disappearing. Just on statistical fact, there should be one within that train car, and there were none.

STU: Yeah. I mean --

JASON: They did not respond.

STU: We see what happens when they do, with Daniel Penny. Our society tries to vilify them and crush their existence. Now, there weren't that many people on that train. Right?

At least on that car. At least it's limited. I only saw three or four people there, there may have been more. I agree with you, though. Like, you see what happens when we actually do have a really recent example of someone doing exactly what Jason wants and what I would want a guy to do. Especially a marine to step up and stop this from happening. And the man was dragged by our legal system to a position where he nearly had to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I mean, I -- it's insanity. Thankfully, they came to their senses on that one.

GLENN: Well, the difference between that one and this one though is that the guy was threatening. This one, he killed somebody.

STU: Yeah. Right. Well, but -- I think -- but it's the opposite way. The debate with Penny, was should he have recognize that had this person might have just been crazy and not done anything?

Maybe. He hadn't actually acted yet. He was just saying things.

GLENN: Yeah. Well --

STU: He didn't wind up stabbing someone. This is a situation where these people have already seen what this man will do to you, even when you don't do anything to try to stop him. So if this woman, who is, again, looks to be an average American woman.

Across the aisle. Steps in and tries to do something. This guy could easily turn around and just make another pile of dead bodies next to the one that already exists.

And, you know, whether that is an optimal solution for our society, I don't know that that's helpful.

In that situation.

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