British columnist Melanie Phillips joins Glenn Beck to expose how close the UK may be to an Islamist takeover. She explains the key difference between Muslims and Islamists and why the UK government may soon crack down on so-called “Islamophobia.”
Transcript
Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors
GLENN: Melanie, we only had a couple of minutes yesterday. And I appreciate you coming back on today, on the podcast, and the radio podcast.
Melanie is with The Times of London. She's a columnist there. She's also the author of Builder's Stone. And we were talking about your battle with Islamism, last night. Thank you for coming on, Melanie.
MELANIE: My pleasure. Good to speak to you again, Glenn.
GLENN: So explain first, for anybody who doesn't understand, the difference between a Muslim and an Islamist.
MELANIE: Well, there are people who say, there is no difference. That Islam is one thing, and all Muslims are equally bad.
And I personally viewed the term, it sounded very helpful.
Because I think that there are plenty of Muslims, certainly in Britain, and elsewhere, who absolutely are fine, who have completely signed up to the Western values, that's why they have chosen to live in the West
They appreciate freedom of democracy and equality of women and so forth. But there's a very large number in the Muslim community, in Britain, and around the West, which is not fine.
These are what I would call Islamists. Or people who are offered to you, that Islam is a political project, which means that they have to impose Islam on the non-Islamic and not Islamic enough by their life world. And those are the people who are presenting the problem, which we are grappling with. And I do think it's important to make a distinction between the two.
GLENN: So the Islamist is somebody -- I would compare them to a communist for a fascist Nazi.
That it is their way or the how. And their goal is to spread this ideology, and make everybody uniform all around the world.
Is that too harsh of a comparison?
MELANIE: That's right. That's absolutely right. They divide the world into the realm of Islam, which is everything good. And under the realm of God, in their view. And the realm of the infidel. Non-Islam, where everything is bad. And everything is of the devil.
And the terrible thing is this: That this is a doctrine, of religious fanaticism.
They believe they have a -- literally a sacred butte.
A God-imposed duty. To convert the entire world to Islam.
And consequently, these are people who you cannot negotiate with. One of the problems with the west, is that it views these people like everybody else in the world, through the prism of the West. They think that -- people in the West think that people in the Islamic world are all like them. Governed by reason and self-interest. They really can't get their heads around in the West, the idea that religious fanaticism is something completely different.
Islamic suicide bombers blow themselves to smithereens. They're not doing it from despair. Which is what the West thinks. The West thinks, why on earth would they do that, if they weren't in despair? On the contrary, they are doing it because they are ecstatic that they are doing the work of God. You can also believe in the west. You know, why would Islamists want to hurt us in America? We have done nothing to hurt them.
That's not the way it works.
The Islamist thinks that it's their sacred duty to convert everybody, at the point of -- at the end of -- of -- to Islam. It's nothing to do with what the West have done to them.
It is how they see their sacred religious duty in the world. That's the terrifying thing which so many in the world, I think just don't appreciate.
GLENN: Well, let me play devil's advocate, and say what everybody in the media would say to you. While there are religious extremists that are Christians as well, and they are just as dangerous, and you know it.
MELANIE: No. They're not as dangerous. There are religious extremists, who are Christians. And some of them resort to violent acts.
But they don't have the view that the entire world has to be dominated by their point of view. And they are not setting out to dominate the world.
And even if they are, in their own minds, they are a tiny fringe. Revealing -- in the world of Islam. Although, as I said, we must be very careful, not to paint all Muslims with the same brush.
However, the dominant authority in the world of Islam are all committed to this jihadi outlook. This belief that the non-Islamic world has to be converted to Islam.
And that is the problem. You have a kind of institutional impetus, behind this terrible thing.
Whereas, extreme Christians.
You know, they appear. They do terrible things.
But nevertheless, it's well within our ability to control it.
When you're dealing with so many millions of people in the world of Islam, who are out to destroy the free world.
You're dealing with something completely different.
GLENN: And isn't that why the country -- ours, yours, Europe, are remaining silent and instead, silencing those who are speaking up and speaking the truth?
I mean, what's happening in England with the silencing of free speech is terrifying.
MELANIE: Yes, I think it's certainly a large part of it. And I followed this for many years, the attitude of the governing glass of Britain, to what I would call the steady of process of Islamization, which has been going on.
And I think that there's more than one reason for that.
Certainly a principle reason is fear. Because the numbers are so great, you know, in absolute terms, the numbers who are posing a direct threat to Britain are enormous. The security further says, that these are the people -- of the thousands of people on its books and a direct threat to Britain.
Although, it's comprised something like, important to officials. Something like 6 percent of the population of Britain.
The security service of MI5 says they compose 19 percent of those who are posing such a serious threat, that they're on their books. So this is a terrible problem for sure. And it's one that in terms of numbers, has spooked successive governments so that they run away from it. But there's another reason that successive governments run away from it.
Which is that the liberal world, by which I mean, not just people who are like the Labor Party, which is in the government now. But there's also the conservative party, that preceded it.
They all signed up to the overarching default liberal position. That the West cannot assert its superiority, over any other culture.
To do so is racist.
And therefore, you cannot criticize the world of Islam. Because that is racist. Or to use the other phrase, Islamophobic.
In other words, it's a kind of prejudice or bigotry, to criticize a minority group. One that is showed to be oppressed, by the West for centuries.
And consequently, it cannot bring itself to even name what it's up against. Because it tells itself what to say, that a very serious, and a unique problem in the Muslim community and Britain. In the Islamic world in general, that is a form of racism and Islamophobia.
And so the most we can agree to, is that there are a few crazies in that world. And then try to explain those away, in -- it would be comical, were it not so dangerous.
You know, when it comes to the Islamic extremism, well, there's nothing Islamic about it.
It's just extremism.
It just arrived out of a clear blue sky.
It's ludicrous what they got deeply tangled into.
JASON: Hi, Melanie, my name is Jason, I'm one of Glenn's researchers. And I've been fascinated, I guess horrified by watching some of this. And also, you cannot speak about any of this. You are merely shut down. In America, we have groups, that are partnering with the left. Groups like the counsel on Islamic -- American Islamic relations. Do you have something similar over in the UK, that's playing that role of pressuring people, pressuring lawmakers to where, you will go this way? Or you will not say something like no-go zones. Or there will be ramifications?
MELANIE: Well, we don't have something exactly parallel to CAIR. But we have Muslim Brotherhood-funded groups, of which --
GLENN: Close enough.
MELANIE: Right. The liberal council in Britain, which is the British home office and sort of security base of the government department has treated with great caution and disdain. And I think it has refused to negotiate or talk to it. I'm not sure that's still the case.
But there is -- there is a vast number of charities which are basically Muslim Brotherhood charities, which aren't touched, because the government refuse to see ban the Muslim Brotherhood. And I think this applies to America as well.
They refuse to ban the Muslim Brotherhood. Partly because it's very difficult to get a hold of -- it's a secretive organization, that hides behind apparently, legitimate charities. Voluntary groups. Nevertheless, it's very much there.
The people in those groups adhere to the teachings of the foundational characters of modern-day Islamism. Political Islam.
Jihadi Islam.
And there are a number of people in Britain, people who are very well-informed about this. Who said for years, Britain should outlaw the Muslim brotherhood, and got to the essential, to stop it from proselytizing and from radicalizing.
So many impressionable young Muslims. And I think that's true of Americans too.
You know, CAIR is regarded in a kind of legitimate partner, by -- by successive administrations. In various respects. Now, this is all disastrous. And that really has to stop.
GLENN: Okay. Let me take a one-minute break. And then come back with you, Melanie. I want to ask you, how close to the edge, are we? I feel like we're getting to a place where we're so complacent. And you first. We will lose our rights to speak out about this.
And then that will sow trouble on the streets, and eventually what happened to Iran, just happens.
How does this -- how does a great society, that is western, and open, and educated, all of a sudden, you know, start putting their women in burqas.
It happened where before. And it looks like it will happen to Europe and England. And could happen here in America.
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GLENN: You're hearing Melanie Phillips. She's a broadcaster on radio and TV, gives public presentations all across the English-speaking world.
She also writes a weekly column for the Times of London and has written a book called The Builder's Stone. Welcome back, Melanie.
How close to the edge is -- let's just say England?
To real civil unrest, or a possible, you know, 1979 Iran kind of thing?
Do you see that in the cards at all?
MELANIE: I think there's still sufficient people in Britain, who are authentically British, who have a sense of authentic British culture. Which is the culture which has never resulted to violence, unless its back is absolutely against the wall. It's pretty tolerant. It's pretty mild. And it prefers to deal with the democratic process. And I think that's kind of playing out now. I -- certainly, you can say, how close are we? In general, I think that the West, Europe in general, is extremely close to being submerged by all this.
So it's Britain. Look at the demographic projections. I forget now, by which year. But basically, in the next few decades, you know, various countries are going to have very, very significant Muslim minorities, and even a Muslim majority.
So that is clearly, you know, a difficulty.
Things could be done, and I have some hopes, that things will be done. Because although the elites, the political and cultural elites have their heads firmly turned the other direction, nevertheless, we've seen the lives of so-called populist parties in Britain and Europe.
Which are parties, whether you like them or not, is not the issue. Some of them are pretty obnoxious.
Basically, they're responding to the fact that millions and millions of ordinary, decent people, who want to live in a place that they feel is their homeland. They feel a connection to their nation.
They want to feel pride in their nation. They want to feel that their nation has historic value for being themselves. With people who share their common purpose.
Those people felt completely abandoned and betrayed by the entire political establishment. So we're seeing the rise of populism. And I think therefore, in the Democratic process, we are going to see the election of people who are going to be much more robust.
Now, what could they do? There are things they could do.
Because the Islamists have made the roads heavy, because they have correctly perceived, there's a vacuum. It's not happened so much in America.
But this Britain, in particular, have been the sort of western world leader, this the post-moral, post-religious, Britain is godless.
By and large, the church, unlike in America, has not maintained a defense against the erosion of Biblical -- it's lit the charge against it.
Amazing, as that may seem. And so if you have a vacuum, and you have a society which tells itself, it was born -- the original sins. Conquests. So there are very things that the west could do to defend itself.
GLENN: Melanie, I'm out of time. Thank you so much for talking to us again today.
You're -- you're a real beacon of light and courage. And I wish there were many more people like you. Melanie Phillips.
