GLENNApril 13, 2017

How a Former Russian Spy Fell in Love With America

Jack Barsky, former Russian spy who ran from both the FBI and KGB in the 1980s, joined Glenn in studio Thursday to discuss his new book Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America. Barsky included details about his incredible life as a spy inside the United States, including what happened when he received the secret signal to return to Russia --- and why he ignored it.

Listen to these segments from The Glenn Beck Program:

GLENN: Jack, it is a thrill to meet you. Just a thrill.

JACK: The thrill is mine.

GLENN: So you have been living in the United States, since when?

JACK: Since 1978.

GLENN: Okay. And you were an undercover -- you were sent here to the United States to pose as an American.

JACK: Correct.

GLENN: And you worked in what industry? Because you're a chemist.

JACK: Yeah, I studied chemistry. But I never used any of that. You know, I taught chemistry and math for about a year as an assistant professor in Germany. And then I signed with the KGB. And my chemistry knowledge was gone. I never used it.

GLENN: Yeah. And you came here to do, what?

JACK: Well, to pretty much help destroy the United States. It didn't quite work that way.

GLENN: Right. Yeah. And I want to come back to this. I'm so glad we have two hours. But let me jump ahead a bit to 1988. You're walking down into the subway. And you see on the handle a splash of red paint.

JACK: Yeah, there was a pre-defined signal spot that was on my way to work, which I found and described to my -- the center, where they could put a signal. And that day was a great time, December morning. You know, I'm going off to work half asleep. And there's that red dot, the size of a fist. That was a clear signal. It was a danger signal. This was the most urgent signal that I could have ever read. And that meant, get out.

GLENN: It meant they're on to you.

JACK: That meant, get out. It's an emergency. Don't ask any questions. Just go -- don't go any place else. Get your reserve documents and make a beeline to Canada. And from there, we'll take you home. That was the plan.

STU: And you have to worry that they would -- they hopefully don't unrelated paint the wall red.

GLENN: Right.

JACK: It wasn't a wall. It was one of those -- you know, an elevated subway.

STU: Oh, okay.

JACK: Supporting beams. Steel beams.

STU: Okay.

GLENN: So when you saw that, your heart --

JACK: You're good. You're actually -- you're good material for working in the field.

GLENN: Your heart -- your heart must have leapt into your throat.

JACK: You know, I -- that's a question that I get a lot. For certain situations that I was in. And actually, it never happened like that. You know, what overcame me in situations like that, similarly to when I first entered the country, certain psychological numbness. All right? I became sort of a robot. And at that point, the robot made a decision. I'm not doing it. And I went on to work.

And funny thing is nobody noticed. Nobody noticed that something was wrong with me. Neither my wife at home nor the colleagues. And it was for three months afterwards when I was like -- I had some concern that somebody might be after me. Nobody ever noticed. So it's what I call numbness. I can't explain it.

GLENN: Did the KGB then contact you and then like, dude?

JACK: Yes.

STU: I doubt they said that.

JACK: The dude thing happened. And this is one of the moments that I can relive in my memory. So I'm standing on the subway platform, very close to where the first car would come in. And there were about a couple of dozen people on the platform. It was still -- it was another morning -- early morning. And this -- this figure comes from the right in a dark coat. And pretty short guy. And he whispered so it would be audible to only me that you got to come home, or else you're dead.

That was another moment where numbness overcame me.

GLENN: What did you say?

JACK: Nothing. He walked away. That was it.

JEFFY: Oh, you didn't push him in front of the subway or --

PAT: And was the threat that they were going to kill you, the KGB? Or was --

JACK: Well, think about -- you know, this was spoken with a pretty heavy accent. So this could have easily also been sort of, you know, dead meaning that your cover is blown. Right? You know, you're dead.

So you can interpret it either way.

JEFFY: Either way.

JACK: You have to take -- I had to take seriously the real threat because even then I knew the KGB was coming after folks, after defectors.

However, I've been told by somebody who should know -- I met him about six weeks ago, Mr. Oleg Kalugin, who was the head of counterintelligence for the KGB -- he now lives in the United States. And he stated that they never did -- they never -- they never killed anybody on the United States territory.

So take it for what it is. You know, we will never know.

GLENN: I don't believe that. But do you have ever watch the TV show -- I don't want to get into this, but do you ever watch the TV show The Americans?

JACK: I do. Because, you know, I'm friends with the producers now.

JEFFY: I bet.

GLENN: Right. I was wondering, have you consulted or if you thought that was pretty --

JACK: No. You know, they should have me as a consultant because I was on the set and I found a bunch of things that were -- they're very much focused on being authentic.

GLENN: Oh, yeah.

JACK: I mean, and they're going through great lengths to find the right cars, the right buses.

GLENN: Yeah, yeah. It's quite amazing.

JACK: And the decorations on the set. But I found a few things that were wrong just by...

(chuckling)

GLENN: Yeah.

JACK: But, yeah, it's -- it's a very entertaining show. But with regard to intelligence work -- they know it -- it's -- it's all nonsense.

(laughter)

STU: This is not a way to get hired, you realize that.

JACK: No, they know it. They know it. It's entertainment.

JEFFY: Yeah, it's got to be a show.

STU: Okay.

JACK: But let me tell you one thing, what they are doing really well is how they cover the psychology of being undercover.

There's a -- there was a possibility at one point that I would actually -- that they would have sent me to the US with a wife.

GLENN: Because they arranged a wife for you in Germany, right?

JACK: No, they didn't arrange it. You know, they allowed me to get married to the one that I fell in love with. They -- they screened her. And she was, quote, unquote, clean. And there was some sort of actually sending her over here with me.

GLENN: Knowingly. Her knowingly being involved?

JACK: Knowingly. Except she psychologically, she was not capable of handling that kind of pressure. So they kept us separate.

But, anyway, getting back to The Americans, this is the best part of their show is how --

GLENN: The situation.

JACK: -- how those folks deal with being in another country, becoming another person. And God forbid, now you have children.

GLENN: Right.

JACK: One of my favorite episodes is when the kid is bringing the pastor to dinner.

GLENN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you grew up that way. As I read your book and as I know your story, you know, you grew up -- and in The Americans, they keep going back to what their life was like back in Russia.

And a couple thoughts come up on like, why wouldn't you come here and just see the plenty and go, man, I'm on the wrong side? You grew up in a time in Germany when it was being rebuilt. And the underwear that you wore for a long time was actually parachute silk, right?

JACK: Yeah, because there wasn't much of anything that could be bought. And so you had to really -- you know, you had to scramble. But, you know, when you're talking about The Americans and going back to where you came from, ideology, as it's fed to you, from childhood on, is a very, very strong foundation.

GLENN: Because that's what happened to you. Just like in The Americans.

JACK: That's exactly right.

GLENN: Your family said, Christianity is fairytale.

JACK: That's right. I mean, not the family -- the entire society, the school systems, the teachers, friends. Everybody. Christianity wasn't even mentioned. I mean, we had Christmas, and there was no Christ in Christmas.

We didn't -- you know, I opened a Bible once because I found one, and I read it from, you know, Genesis chapter one -- you know, that's not how you should read the Bible as a child.

GLENN: Right.

JACK: But the bottom line is -- so people ask me that question all the time. So when you came over here and you saw all this wealth, didn't that make you waver? Uh-uh. Not at all.

As I said, and that applies to any kind of ideology. If you're being fed a certain belief system from childhood on, it sticks with you. It's very difficult to overcome. And, as a matter of fact, I have some good friends back in Germany, with whom I reconnected. They got screwed over by East Germany, one way or another, and they're still communist. It's very difficult to shed what you're being fed.

PAT: Living here though, did you eventually gain some like sympathy to America? Did you fall in love with America?

GLENN: Yeah, when did that pivot happen with you? Why did you decided -- when you saw that red dot -- I'm not leaving?

JACK: Well, that was not because of the country. That was because of Chelsea my daughter, who is now 29 years old. She was 18 at the time.

And that was for the first time -- you know, I don't want to go back. My book is actually, if I want -- if I have to describe it in very few words, it's a love story.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

JACK: It's about love denied. It's about not being able to love the right way.

GLENN: Yeah. Having two families and being torn apart. You had one in Germany and one here.

JACK: Right. But in this situation, this was the first time that I felt the pull of unconditional love. And as you -- I bet you guys know that, that is stronger than anything else.

GLENN: Oh, yeah.

JACK: And so, you know, it sounds like -- trite: Love conquers all. But this one did.

GLENN: In The Americans, you see that -- what's it called? Control. Not control. What's the --

JACK: Oh, the center?

GLENN: The center.

JACK: Control.

GLENN: Yeah, yeah, no. That's Get Smart.

(laughter)

PAT: Which is really accurate.

GLENN: Right.

PAT: Unlike The Americans. Get Smart was totally accurate.

GLENN: Right. Right. The center starts to get concerned because of the kids.

JACK: Yeah.

GLENN: They know that now that the kids -- the kids are becoming American. And it's not easy to rip them back to Russia. And they're starting to think and know that that could change the agents.

JACK: But there's also this other train of thought, which was actually real, not as far as I'm concerned, but I've heard folks talk about it, to, you know, create this second generation of undercover agents that are even more deeply buried, that could one day become the Manchurian candidate. Right?

GLENN: Yeah. Right.

JACK: Those dreams were dreamed by certain KGB folks.

GLENN: You think it happened?

PAT: And we had that in Barack Obama.

(laughter)

RADIO

Shocking train video: Passengers wait while woman bleeds out

Surveillance footage of the murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska in Charlotte, NC, reveals that the other passengers on the train took a long time to help her. Glenn, Stu, and Jason debate whether they were right or wrong to do so.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: You know, I'm -- I'm torn on how I feel about the people on the train.

Because my first instinct is, they did nothing! They did nothing! Then my -- well, sit down and, you know -- you know, you're going to be judged. So be careful on judging others.

What would I have done? What would I want my wife to do in that situation?

STU: Yeah. Are those two different questions, by the way.

GLENN: Yeah, they are.

STU: I think they go far apart from each other. What would I want myself to do. I mean, it's tough to put yourself in a situation. It's very easy to watch a video on the internet and talk about your heroism. Everybody can do that very easily on Twitter. And everybody is.

You know, when you're in a vehicle that doesn't have an exit with a guy who just murdered somebody in front of you, and has a dripping blood off of a knife that's standing 10 feet away from you, 15 feet away from you.

There's probably a different standard there, that we should all kind of consider. And maybe give a little grace to what I saw at least was a woman, sitting across the -- the -- the aisle.

I think there is a difference there. But when you talk about that question. Those two questions are definitive.

You know, I know what I would want myself to do. I would hope I would act in a way that didn't completely embarrass myself afterward.

But I also think, when I'm thinking of my wife. My advice to my wife would not be to jump into the middle of that situation at all costs. She might do that anyway. She actually is a heck of a lot stronger than I am.

But she might do it anyway.

GLENN: How pathetic, but how true.

STU: Yes. But that would not be my advice to her.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: Now, maybe once the guy has certainly -- is out of the area. And you don't think the moment you step into that situation. He will turn around and kill you too. Then, of course, obviously. Anything you can do to step in.

Not that there was much anyone on the train could do.

I mean, I don't think there was an outcome change, no matter what anyone on that train did.

Unfortunately.

But would I want her to step in?

Of course. If she felt she was safe, yes.

Think about, you said, your wife. Think about your daughter. Your daughter is on that train, just watching someone else getting murdered like that. Would you advise your daughter to jump into a situation like that?

That girl sitting across the aisle was somebody's daughter. I don't know, man.

JASON: I would. You know, as a dad, would I advise.

Hmm. No.

As a human being, would I hope that my daughter or my wife or that I would get up and at least comfort that woman while she's dying on the floor of a train?

Yeah.

I would hope that my daughter, my son, that I would -- and, you know, I have more confidence in my son or daughter or my wife doing something courageous more than I would.

But, you know, I think I have a more realistic picture of myself than anybody else.

And I'm not sure that -- I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. I know what I would hope I would do. But I also know what I fear I would do. But I would have hoped that I would have gotten up and at least tried to help her. You know, help her up off the floor. At least be there with her, as she's seeing her life, you know, spill out in under a minute.

And that's it other thing we have to keep in mind. This all happened so rapidly.

A minute is -- will seem like a very long period of time in that situation. But it's a very short period of time in real life.

STU: Yeah. You watch the video, Glenn. You know, I don't need the video to -- to change my -- my position on this.

But at his seem like there was a -- someone who did get there, eventually, to help, right? I saw someone seemingly trying to put pressure on her neck.

GLENN: Yeah. And tried to give her CPR.

STU: You know, no hope at that point. How long of a time period would you say that was?

Do you know off the top of your head?

GLENN: I don't know. I don't know. I know that we watched the video that I saw. I haven't seen past 30 seconds after she --

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: -- is down. And, you know, for 30 seconds nothing is happening. You know, that is -- that is not a very long period of time.

STU: Right.

GLENN: In reality.

STU: And especially, I saw the pace he was walking. He certainly can't be -- you know, he may have left the actual train car by 30 seconds to a minute. But he wasn't that far away. Like he was still in visual.

He could still turn around and look and see what's going on at that point. So certainly still a threat is my point. He has not, like, left the area. This is not that type of situation.

You know, I -- look, as you point out, I think if I could be super duper sexist for a moment here, sort of my dividing line might just be men and women.

You know, I don't know if it's that a -- you're not supposed to say that, I suppose these days. But, like, there is a difference there. If I'm a man, you know, I would be -- I would want my son to jump in on that, I suppose. I don't know if he could do anything about it. But you would expect at least a grown man to be able to go in there and do something about it. A woman, you know, I don't know.

Maybe I'm -- I hope --

GLENN: Here's the thing I -- here's the thing that I -- that causes me to say, no. You should have jumped in.

And that is, you know, you've already killed one person on the train. So you've proven that you're a killer. And anybody who would have screamed and got up and was with her, she's dying. She's dying. Get him. Get him.

Then the whole train is responsible for stopping that guy. You know. And if you don't stop him, after he's killed one person, if you're not all as members of that train, if you're not stopping him, you know, the person at the side of that girl would be the least likely to be killed. It would be the ones that are standing you up and trying to stop him from getting back to your daughter or your wife or you.

JASON: There was a -- speaking of men and women and their roles in this. There was a video circling social media yesterday. In Sweden. There was a group of officials up on a stage. And one of the main. I think it was health official woman collapses on stage. Completely passes out.

All the men kind of look away. Or I don't know if they're looking away. Or pretending that they didn't know what was going on. There was another woman standing directly behind the woman passed out.

Immediately springs into action. Jumps on top. Grabs her pant leg. Grabs her shoulder. Spins her over and starts providing care.

What did she have that the other guys did not? Or women?

She was a sheepdog. There is a -- this is my issue. And I completely agree with Stu. I completely agree with you. There's some people that do not respond this way. My issue is the proportion of sheepdogs versus people that don't really know how to act. That is diminishing in western society. And American society.

We see it all the time in these critical actions. I mean, circumstances.

There are men and women, and it's actually a meme. That fantasize about hoards of people coming to attack their home and family. And they sit there and say, I've got it. You guys go. I'm staying behind, while I smoke my cigarette and wait for the hoards to come, because I will sacrifice myself. There are men and women that fantasize of block my highway. Go ahead. Block my highway. I'm going to do something about it. They fantasize about someone holding up -- not a liquor store. A convenience store or something. Because they will step in and do something. My issue now is that proportion of sheepdogs in society is disappearing. Just on statistical fact, there should be one within that train car, and there were none.

STU: Yeah. I mean --

JASON: They did not respond.

STU: We see what happens when they do, with Daniel Penny. Our society tries to vilify them and crush their existence. Now, there weren't that many people on that train. Right?

At least on that car. At least it's limited. I only saw three or four people there, there may have been more. I agree with you, though. Like, you see what happens when we actually do have a really recent example of someone doing exactly what Jason wants and what I would want a guy to do. Especially a marine to step up and stop this from happening. And the man was dragged by our legal system to a position where he nearly had to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I mean, I -- it's insanity. Thankfully, they came to their senses on that one.

GLENN: Well, the difference between that one and this one though is that the guy was threatening. This one, he killed somebody.

STU: Yeah. Right. Well, but -- I think -- but it's the opposite way. The debate with Penny, was should he have recognize that had this person might have just been crazy and not done anything?

Maybe. He hadn't actually acted yet. He was just saying things.

GLENN: Yeah. Well --

STU: He didn't wind up stabbing someone. This is a situation where these people have already seen what this man will do to you, even when you don't do anything to try to stop him. So if this woman, who is, again, looks to be an average American woman.

Across the aisle. Steps in and tries to do something. This guy could easily turn around and just make another pile of dead bodies next to the one that already exists.

And, you know, whether that is an optimal solution for our society, I don't know that that's helpful.

In that situation.

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST

Max Lucado on Overcoming Grief in Dark Times | The Glenn Beck Podcast | Ep 266

Disclaimer: This episode was filmed prior to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. But Glenn believes Max's message is needed now more than ever.
The political world is divided, constantly at war with itself. In many ways, our own lives are not much different. Why do we constantly focus on the negative? Why are we in pain? Where is God amid our anxiety and fear? Why can’t we ever seem to change? Pastor Max Lucado has found the solution: Stop thinking like that! It may seem easier said than done, but Max joins Glenn Beck to unpack the three tools he describes in his new book, “Tame Your Thoughts,” that make it easy for us to reset the way we think back to God’s factory settings. In this much-needed conversation, Max and Glenn tackle everything from feeling doubt as a parent to facing unfair hardships to ... UFOs?! Plus, Max shares what he recently got tattooed on his arm.

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST

Are Demonic Forces to Blame for Charlie Kirk, Minnesota & Charlotte Killings?

This week has seen some of the most heinous actions in recent memory. Glenn has been discussing the growth of evil in our society, and with the assassination of civil rights leader Charlie Kirk, the recent transgender shooter who took the lives of two children at a Catholic school, and the murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska, how can we make sense of all this evil? On today's Friday Exclusive, Glenn speaks with BlazeTV host of "Strange Encounters" Rick Burgess to discuss the demon-possessed transgender shooter and the horrific assassination of Charlie Kirk. Rick breaks down the reality of demon possession and how individuals wind up possessed. Rick and Glenn also discuss the dangers of the grotesque things we see online and in movies, TV shows, and video games on a daily basis. Rick warns that when we allow our minds to be altered by substances like drugs or alcohol, it opens a door for the enemy to take control. A supernatural war is waging in our society, and it’s a Christian’s job to fight this war. Glenn and Rick remind Christians of what their first citizenship is.

Glenn's Show Prep

How a Former Russian Spy Fell in Love With America

Shocking train video: Passengers wait while woman bleeds out

Transcript

Max Lucado on Overcoming Grief in Dark Times | The Glenn Beck Podcast | Ep 266

Are Demonic Forces to Blame for Charlie Kirk, Minnesota & Charlotte Killings?

Here’s what we know about the suspected Charlie Kirk assassin