Let’s go off the cliff and make sure cuts are included.  Come back and cut the rates except for the upper income.  The taxes on the rich are going up no matter what.  It can be only temporary when the obama economics crashes.  No debt ceiling increase.  Force those cuts no matter what has to be done temporarily.

All of the land and all the people, all centered on a government that does what is best for, by and of the government instead of the govt being by, of and for the people. We are growing ever closer to Obama’s dictatorship.

I absolutely agree with landofaahs.  However, my vision is a bit more forward looking.  No matter if we avert a “financial cliff”, cut taxes for everyone, increase taxes on everyone, give in to the Dems or let the current Republicans do what they want…we are going over the cliff!  I firmly believe our nation is beyond repair for one simple reason:  Our morality seems to have approached the point of no return.  You cannot separate economics from morality, because our economics hinge on our morality.  Until our nation repents, families are mended, and we return to God, nothing will be “fixed.” 

It is not shocking that Obama cannot keep his word. He wants this country to burn so the new socialist order can rise. We must not let this happen. It been time to stand up for some time I just hope we are not too late to stop it because this is a fight for our freedom.

I want Republicans to say, “No deal”. Let them squirm. So what if the nation blames the right. They will be blamed anyway. But Obama will be blamed at the end of his term when he racks up more debt. After all, he is the one that did most of the spending getting us in this mess. What ever happens, it is Obama who will be responsible. If we let him have more money to spend, then we are the problem. He must cut his spending now or no deal. Any money from higher taxes must go to pay down the debt not for entitlements.

We are going over no matter what so the right should say no deal. It isn’t going fix anything to raise taxes or have spending cuts. Let it crash. It is going to happen sooner or later anyway. We will have to deal with the outcome and then rebuild our country from the ground up. What we are doing now is putting a bandaid on a cut artery that is not going to stop bleeding without some major surgery.

i agree. let’s go over the cliff.we should have let it happen last summer, instead of going through the sham of the ‘super committee’. what a joke! call his bluff, let him own it. we are going broke regardless.do it! john boehner,grow a spine!

Is Obama a communist in the Stalinist and  the Maoist tradition? OK, I’ll buy communist, but Obama will set his own tradition with the rapt cooperation of half the country. Legalized theft of private property with confiscatory taxation; medical care on a limited rationed basis with a “duty to die” for the old, the halt, the very young; enforced labor via job assignments and “volunteer” work; food, basic goods and medicine rationing,  And for those that strenuously object, a Home Land Security concentration camp. Consider that Hitler and Stalin got the revolution part right while Mao got the oppression part right. Obama is taking one from column A and the other from column B by fiscal and financial means and shoving the result down the throats of the taxpayers.

No debt ceiling increase.  Force those cuts no matter what has to be done temporarily. … http://youtube.qr.net/jOyC/watch?v=dCAc0R3hNDo

Obama has committed treason already & needs to be thrown out of office. Congress & the senate are just as guilty of it for letting Him get away with it. He is a combination Hitler, Stalin, & Mao. maybe worse than them.
They seemed to have forgotten the fact that they work for us
sounds like what happens when you go from a government of the people, by the people, for the people,
to a government of themselves, by themselves, for themselves.

I would have paid decent money to see generally stoic, unassuming Mitch McConnell laugh in tax cheat Geithner’s face. And why is the treasury secretary running around brokering deals while Obama is campaigning at a Pennsylvania toy factory? This is like a bad Saturday Night Live Skit. I’m not kidding, guys.
 

I agree; I wrote yesterday that I believe that our government is so out of control we can’t get it back. They are not listening to the people anymore. Ron Paul or Gary Johnson were our only hope. 

Frank, I agree. Nothing short of a revolution will get our government back.

Add to the list of treason- Reid, Pelosi, and Holder.

 Why in the hell is he still campaigning when he’s already got the job.

 P.S. that was extreme sarcasm he’s campaigning because thats the only thing he knows how to do. If he knew how to govern we wouldn’t be in this mess.

ObummerCare IS the Start of Agenda 21, with it’s passing the Fed Gov’t seized over 13 million acres of land (that has mineral rights, water rights, raw timber, and more) from seven Western States.  Supposedly for Federal Parks/Animal Reserves, but they did not clearly state how it will be used, or by whom…

Boehner is nothing but a liberal in disguise wanker…

There will be a budget deal with major cuts to entitlements.  The current offers are just posturing.  The Republic will survive; there’s nothing to fear.

I guess that’s why Mother Theresa was poor then — economics and morality are inseparable!  

I heard the same theory about America’s moral crumbling in the 70s, and before we knew it, it was “morning in America.” (The 80s).

One irony about the cliff:  it acknowledges that Keynsian economics are true.  After all, if government spending had no stimulus effect on the economy, then you could cut all the spending with no economic effect.  By admitting it’s a problem to go over the “cliff”, the Right concedes there is economic value in government spending.

After Scott Brown won his seat, Beck felt that Obama should just completely back off his agenda. From one Senate race!

Beck doesn’t understand that Obama won. Obama won the opportunity to push his priorities, his agenda, and have his way with compromise. Congress moved left. The country just voted for liberalism.

This opening offer is just that. He wants Republicans to list the programs to be cut, so that he can point his finger at them in 2014 and tell voters that Republicans cut what you need to move into or stay in the Middle Class. This is a vast improvement over his 1st term when he put out compromised positions to start with, only to see the Republicans move further and further right.

This is a negotiation: apparently Beck expects the President to throw his capital away. That is not going to happen. No, instead the Republicans will continue to push in the direction of Glenn Beck and Brent Bozell and find themselves more and more unpopular with voters (outside of the reactionary base that Beck speaks to, a small minority).

Double down Mr. Beck, and drive the Republicans back into the 19th Century, back far enough where it can shake hands with the Whigs and find itself historically obsolete…thanks to Mr. Beck’s efforts to program Americans against an effective state, something Americans just voted FOR.

Are you on drugs?

Only legal ones.  

Seriously, the fiscal cliff was built by lawmakers to enforce spending restraint.  So worst case is, you get spending restraint accompanied by significant shock to the economy.  We should only get worried if there’s a deal involving no signifiant cuts and no significant revenue increases (kicking the can down the road).  I don’t think that’ll happen.  

Ronald Reagan cut spending and taxes and the economy improved. If his plan worked, then it will work now. It created more jobs. Welfare merged with workfare. People became free of government assistance and started new lives on their own. Right now we have too many people held prisoner to government programs. They will become addicted to the hand outs and will never be able to help themselves. We need programs that help people up, not a program that promotes more hand outs with no hope of ever doing better. Our economic problem is a combination of all of these things. If we don’t address all of it we are not going to fix our nation’s financial situation.

Ronald Reagan *increased* spending while cutting taxes, increasing the deficit.  Just saying.

what Anthony explained I am shocked that anybody able to profit $6396 in one month on the network

…..goo.gl/mCtck         (Click on Home)   

You miss the point. I don’t care if we are wealthy as a nation, but what I do care about is whether or not we are gaining wealth in a moral way. If Christians think for one second they can separate their economics and faith, they are sadly ignorant. The Bible talks more about money that nearly any other subject, and for good reason. The love of money can so easily intoxicate and hinder one’s faith. I’m pretty sure how a person operates his/her business can either honor God or dishonor Him, just like the way we operate our government (and spending habits)

To this point, I find it ironic that the religious right embraces the same political party that looks out for the wealthiest Americans.

He also raised taxes eleven times. When he saw there was a deficit he closed loop holes for the wealthy. He went down in history as the best president. Just saying.

I noticed that nobody ever talks about a thing called “Citizens arrest”.
that is what should be done as well.

Mother Theresa was poor because she took an oath of poverty.

Of course.  I was pointing out the illogic of pointing to America’s supposed moral crisis as the reason for our financial problems.  A family that’s spending $70k a month but only taking in $50k may have moral problems, but fact is they need to cut back their spending and/or get more income.  

I believe we have seen the last Republican president in the history of the country..I guess the better description is conservative president. As much as it pains me I believe that we were/are at a crossroads in our nations history. I believe we started turning down the communist road after this last election. The people have spoken, right? The only way to turn this around is to drop over that cliff and hope beyond all hope that the president and his party run out of cool-aid and the rose colored glasses are ripped off of the American peoples eyes. The one danger to this strategy is that it could have the exact opposite reaction and throw us deeper into a socialist mentality….In the past, several countries have gone from a republic to a dictatorship within the course of 20 years, just because of a financial crisis.

Boener is not TC! – TrueConservative(c). He needs to be weeded out with the all other rinos.

The reason government ‘by the people, for the people’ is not ‘for the people’ anymore is because it is no longer ‘by the people’.

It is now a government ‘by bankers and corporations’. Bank and Corporate profits are booming and have not suffered at all.

Just follow the money. Who didn’t lose in the financial crisis? The financial sector and corporate profits – in fact they’re doing ever better. We have become a country by the bankers and for the bankers. It can be fixed democratically as our founders promised – but it will take a lot of will by the people.

I think a reasonable conservative like Eisenhower, Goldwater, Dole,  or Reagan could still win this country in a landslide. The Republican party has been hijacked by religious and ideological purists. It was a deal made with devil and their pawns have become their kings.

Is agenda 21 from area 51? And  does fluoridation of water and our vital essences play a part? 

It’s sad that our economy is so bad that people can get addicted to $31 dollars a week in food stamps.

Most importantly, I don’t embrace the Republican Party. Furthermore, being wealthy is not inherently immoral, it’s what you do with the wealth and whether or not you “worship” the wealth that is important. I could care less if someone is super wealthy, because I shouldn’t covet what my “neighbor” has. Also, when was the last time you got a job from a poor person. The wealthy create jobs, many wealthy people give to charity (not all do), and wealthy pay the majority of our tax burden. I don’t get angry over someone being wealthy, but I do get angry over selfish people that steal and covet other people’s property.

The marriage of Ayn Rand philosphy (atheist, greed is good, altruism is evil) and the religious power grabbers has produced a monster at war with itself. Something has to give – it is committing suicide.

The dark forces undergirding the current American political systems have no connection to what was once a Constitutionally-based, Declaration of Independence-driven society that took pride in being a “One Nation Under God” Republic. Any honest person of average intelligence could readily interrupt the decline of America as the result inaction by our so-called leaders. We have been witnessing a shocking lack of vision by politicians, government corruption at every level, unethical business practices in marketplaces, media deceptions, and a general propensity for immorality by a majority of our citizens. The sad reality is that we now have a “man” in the White House who has managed to transcend many laws, and is well on his way to assuring the conclusive “transformation” of traditional values. Any “JUDGE” in Florida – or any other state – that discounts the validity of seeking “JUSTICE” at this point in history should be… (fill in the blank) or… (fill in the blank) and marked as a traitor who has committed an act of treason. Otherwise, abolish the federal government; abolish political parties; abolish unions and fight like hell to survive!

Well, if you don’t embrace the Republican Party then you’re not what I’m talking about.  I’m talking about a Republican coalition that includes a.) the very rich who won’t let Republican politicians propose the slightest tax increase on them despite a nation in financial trouble and b.) evangelical Christians whose Jesus tells them to take care of the poor (not the rich).  

I’m pointing out a contradiction that you’re not apparently a part of.

As long as Obama’s in office — and not impeached for all of the times he’s committed treason — America will fall. We try to impeach Clinton for infidelity but it’s okay for Obama to commit treason on a daily basis. Makes no sense to me.

Yes and yes. I am frustrated at the absence of the Tea Party and libertarians. True conservatives need to spell out exactly how corrupt Obama and this administration are: for example, Obama/Reid/Holder/etc violated Article ___ of the Constitution of the United States by ________. Thomas Jefferson envisioned what is happening right now: “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” Unfortunately, since no one is holding Obama and his cronies accountable, the Constitution has been trampled on then thrown in the trash.Also, the GOP needs a good publicist and/or media consultant. They are TERRIBLE at getting their message out and the American people have completely bought into the GOP as “evil white rich guys” and, to be frank, Romney didn’t help. He is a good, decent man, but he let Obama get away with murder. For instance, with this fiscal cliff, they need to let the people know exactly what they are proposing and why. The MSM hammers over and over again that they are protecting the 1%ers and want to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, therefore your grandma will die. That’s not the case and they need to clearly explain that to the American people. Those programs will be insolvent in 10-15 yrs, and, oh, yeah, what about the projected 20 trillion dollar deficit? This country is spending itself into oblivion yet the MSM omits that part. These are scary times and I don’t know what’s to come, but I don’t think it will be good.

The average amount paid for welfare per person is $60,000 a year. Someone sitting home collecting that doesn’t have to do a thing. Not to mention the other benefits like food stamps and phones.

Glenn, Pat, and Stu,

Please pray for me. You know what I have. I just don’t know how to deal with it. I forgive you, Glenn, because I understand what the enemy did to provoke you.

John

Just to clear up the facts – the average amount paid per person for welfare is NOT $60,000 a year. That’s the the average cost per prisoner in the US.

http://www.welfareinfo.org/payments/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57418495/the-cost-of-a-nation-of-incarceration/

Check history. “God” wasn’t added to our money, pledge, or motto until the 1950s. Our original motto was E Pluribus Unem – Out of many one.

Clinton was impeached and convicted for PERJURY ( lying under oath).

 Being impeached (accused), and convicted, does not mean a POTUS is removed from office.

Are you kidding me ? You obviously were not alive during the time of the Johnson/Goldwater  election. Goldwater was derided as a conservative loon.

I remember Bob Dylan’s lyrics..” I am liberal to a degree, I want ev’rybody to be free, but if you think I’d let Barry Goldwater move-in next door and marry my daughter, you must think I’m crazy”

You have no idea about that which you babble .

PFF

Oh yes I was very much alive then. Maybe you’ve forgotten just how moderate Goldwater was by today’s standards. He wouldn’t last a second in the frothing cesspool of ignorance which calls itself ‘conservative ‘. He would be derided as as an impure rino, not PC (pure conservative). Look at the things he said about the Pharisees of the religious right. He saw it coming.

 What about by the Lawyers, and for the Lawyers as well?

 Demo-Rat, or republican, it is just a two winged dictatorship that wants to do away with our rights &  our way of life.

Lawyers are everywhere and on every side from the ACLU to the Cato Institute. I’m not sure how they made out as a group. But I know the financial sector has had a boom and corporate profits have never been better. It’s the shrinking middle class that took a whacking.

Lawyers are everywhere and on every side from the ACLU to the Cato Institute. I’m not sure how they made out as a group. But I know the financial sector has had a boom and corporate profits have never been better. It’s the shrinking middle class that took a whacking.

And I remember Bill Clinton said about Barry Goldwater, “I always came away…with the impression that he was a great patriot and a truly fine human being.”

And I remember Bill Clinton said about Barry Goldwater, “I always came away…with the impression that he was a great patriot and a truly fine human being.”

Obama will pledge once again in January to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. I can’t think of anything that turns my stomach more. 

Fox News “offers very little reason for potential viewers to watch it.” 

If the information a news organization brings to the public is wrong and is demonstrated—easily—to be incorrect, then what is the value proposition? Fox News fills not-so-bright people’s heads with comforting bullshit and it serves to get them riled up and angry with… non-facts. It tells dum-dums, not “the news,” but what they want to hear. Study after study has shown that Fox News fans are the least informed people in America—indeed they are the very opposite of informed, as they tend to actually know less than they would had they watched no TV news at all.

If Fox is dumbing it’s low-information viewers down, then Beck is rendering his followers politically retarded. It is so easy to go out and fact-check Beck to understand how often he tells you bold faced lies. It’s not rare.

Beck combines facts, fictions, far-right spin on the facts and post-truth politics to create utterly false narratives. One of these is the fiction that Obama is some kind of leftist. He’s not. No self-respecting political scientist thinks that he’s progressive, much less socialist, but Beck’s gullible, “tell us what we want to hear” followers soak up Beck’s utter nonsense and come across to informed votes as… well, politically retarded.

Read The American Conservative if you want accurate, conservative news and analysis.  Listen to Glenn Beck if you want to be deemed the village idiot when you open your mouth.

“The president’s idea of negotiation is: Roll over and do what I ask,” Boehner

doesn’t sound like negotiating to me

Hold on everyone.  We’re going over! Enjoy the ride!!!

The easy way to end fiscal cliff talks is that the Republicans should say the following;  We will accept your proposals with the condition that you repeal ObamaCare and we say “NO” to lifting the debt ceiling.  In fact, we will not even discuss the debt ceiling.

But Glenn, There are some of us that give, and not for the tax deductions……that’s just a perk. I will continue giving as long as I am able to. We will find a way to conquer this evil that we are currently living through; It starts with faith in God. Like everything else that happens when we do this, It’s all on His timeline so be patient.

Bill Clinton was impeached and convicted (while POTUS) for lying under oath.

 Quoting Slick Willy on anything is ludicrous. 

You are no detective, mrmoto ; and Alfred E. Newman appears to be worried, by his visage being used by you.

How many banks received a bail-out from the government during the 2008+ financial crisis ? Recall the corporate debacle of AIG, “too big to fail” ? The car company loans ? FannieMae and FreddieMac ? Countrywide ? 

The American people were told that if these loans were not made, “all would be lost” because of the massive interconnection of all these institutions. Which of these government loans have been paid back to the American people, and what percentage of the outstanding loan balance remains ?

I see –  you can quote Dylan but I can’t quote Clinton.

When faced with facts – go on the personal attacks. I’ve watched  you guys and know that technique. Amazingly well played ValueSetDiscount – but that game is already lost – people aren’t buying it.

What about the Goldwater quotes?

Who are the STOCKHOLDERS in the financial sector and corporations ? Anyone who has a 401k or IRA account; or is part of group retirement fund who pools their resources to invest: retired people living off the dividends of their life savings invested in the market.

Here is the problem. Jesus does instruct us to care for the least of these; however that is an instruction for individuals living out a Christian life, not a government policy instruction. We can have a discussion on whether or not it’s the federal government’s job to care for the poor, but that discussion cannot be had until we can actually afford it. We are over 16 Trillion in debt! Take all the rich people’s money and you cannot balance the budget. We must reset our spending, balance our budgets, become good stewards of what the citizens give the government, and then decide how to best help those in need (and the government might not be the best avenue for this) If you spend all the money you have and rack up tens of thousands in credit card debt, and a family member asks you to help pay their mortgage because they lost their job…how can you help them. I submit, our nation is in that exact position.

PFF

I quoted Dylan not because I respect the man, but to show the pervasive hatred of conservative ideology rampant at the time that this song was written, and hatred against Barry Goldwater personally.

“When faced with facts – go on the personal attacks”…  You are way too thin-skinned… poor baby. 

“but that game is already lost- people aren’t buying it”… least you think that I am attacking you personally, grammatically speaking, you are mixing metaphors.

Re the Goldwater quotes : you say that is what he said. I don’t know if he did… but taking sentences out of the  contextual fabric of a longer statement is disingenuous.  Please cite your references.

Exactly my point. And then they try to tell us it’s poor people on food stamps that are the problem.

Repeat the nonsense that spews forth from Beck’s mouth and risk being deemed the village idiot. Why?

1.  He makes up realities such as the Muslim Brotherhood in the administration. 

2.  He’s uneducated and ignorant of many principles and concepts.

3.  He’s a con man more interested in fame and fortune than principles and values, other than the value of getting richer from people willing to be separated from their hard earned money.

4.  He’s a shill for the corporations and seeks the end of the middle class. He thinks the 19th Century is the ideal, right? Study it: mass poverty and a few supercapitalists got wealthy enough to buy presidents and no middle class. What he wants would destroy your standard of living.

Beck and the Republicans don’t seem to understand: Obama, liberalism and higher taxes on the rich won the election. Taxes are going up either with or without (going over fiscal cliff) Republican support.

@duplicitowse……it isn’t just Republicans guilty of what you are suggesting. Rich Democrats are the worst! At least the right give large amounts to charity. Don’t go pointing fingers….there’s enough corruption to go around in both parties. JednaVira is correct, our morality and economics are connected; Our faith in trusting God has everything to do with our welfare. Before you go and comment about Christians and our beliefs, let me say one more thing…..it’s God’s money loaned to us.

After a LIFETIME of WORKING and SAVING, the average retired person gets $22,000 per year.

It’s spending MORE MONEY than one has, that is the problem.

That goes for people, businesses, and governments.

(Even if ALL the money of the top 2% were CONFISCATED, that would run the government for 8.5 days.)

What are YOU planning to do for your retirement ? ( Just a rhetorical question here. I really don’t think you have a clue as to how long term financial planning works.)

I’m done here.

Oh the pervasive and rampant hatred of the poor persecuted conservative ideology, poor baby. Political disagreement is not hatred and persecution. Yeah, Dylan didn’t like Goldwater and I didn’t much either – but at least he was reasonable and could be respected. The GOP of Goldwater, Eisenhower, Reagan, Bush I, Buckley – folks who used their brains. These folks would be purged in a flash today as RINOs. This Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Fox News loony right wing, conspiracy theory driven, lock stepping, no compromise, anti-science, sanctimonious, religiously hypocritical gang today is nothing like the real GOP of the people you say you honor.
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Ad hominem attacks don’t really bother my skin anymore, they just make you look like an ignoramus, Valueset. People who can think aren’t buying that game anymore. It’s just an ineffectual retreat slap of folks who have no factual argument.
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Re the Goldwater quotes – these have been printed in his books and newspaper articles and can easily be found by anyone looking outside of the bubble. But here’s a few sources if you’re having trouble:
-
Barry Goldwater’s granddaughter http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2012/02/barry-goldwaters-granddaughter.html/
Goldwater speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
Barry M. Goldwater with Jack Casserly, Goldwater (Doubleday, 1988)
Barry Goldwater – Washington Post interview (1994)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2006/11/quote-for-the-day/232168/
http://www.examiner.com/article/christianity-is-what-s-wrong-with-american-politics

No no no – it’s ’nuff said’ not ‘I’m done here’. You obviously don’t have a clue about the difference between micro and macro economics. The kitchen table budget argument of national economics is for the knee jerking ignorant. Nuff said.