PAT: We've had this situation where there is a girl who is transitioning to a boy. And she's 17 years old. She's a wrestler. And so she wanted -- apparently, she wanted to wrestle in the boy's division this year, right?
JEFFY: Correct. Correct.
PAT: Because she's making that switch. So she's going from boy to girl.
STU: And the Texas rule is, you compete in the gender that you were born.
PAT: That's on your birth certificate.
PAT: Especially I guess as long as you have that genitalia, which she does. She's a girl.
STU: Yeah, I don't know -- if you've gone through the full transition, I don't know -- again, if you're talking about kids, this is a pretty new development. I don't know if they have a rule for that.
PAT: Yeah, I don't either.
STU: I think the rule is the gender you had when you were born.
PAT: So that's the rule in Texas because it's hateful. How can you possibly ask somebody to compete in the gender category they were born into, how can you ask that?
STU: You can't, Pat. You can't.
PAT: You can't. Because what if you feel differently? Anyway, she does.
PAT: But she was made to -- she was put in the girl's category for wrestling. So she just won the tournament last week.
JEFFY: Yeah, she won the championship.
PAT: She won the championship.
JEFFY: The -- one of the issues is, is that she is actually going through the transition and taking the prescribed medicine to make the change. And so it's working.
PAT: The testosterone.
STU: Right. And, by the way, this ends any argument of all time as to whether men or women are better athletes. Just -- because this whole thing of -- the old Billie Jean King thing back in the day. Let's be honest about it. You take testosterone, you become better and stronger at sports.
PAT: Now, that is science. That is science.
JEFFY: That is science.
STU: So sorry. I guess we have to apologize for that.
PAT: Everybody knows it. Everybody knows it. You can -- I guess you can try to deny it and say that women are just as strong in every instance as men. It's just not the case.
STU: No, they're better at certain --
PAT: Yes. They're just not built the same way as we are. And that's a good thing. It was supposed to be that way. We're supposed to be different. And we are. And we are.
STU: Stunning. A stunning development that everyone knew at a level of 100 percent until very recently.
PAT: This is insane. And, by the way, if a man were to take testosterone in the -- in Major League Baseball or the NFL --
STU: I like how you're saying this as a crazy hypothetical.
PAT: I know.
STU: If in some circumstance somehow --
PAT: And they do.
STU: -- some at least decided to take performance enhancing drugs --
PAT: I don't remember who it was. But your testosterone as a man in the normal range is 400 to 800, maybe up to 1,000. And that's fairly normal. I can't remember who the baseball player was. It might have been A-Rod. He had a testosterone level -- and I shouldn't mention him because I don't remember who it was. But I remember their level was 4,000. So clearly they had been --
JEFFY: That's a man.
PAT: No man takes -- or has that much natural testosterone. So clearly, they had been taking testosterone, so they were better at what they were doing than they otherwise would have been. So it works on men as well as girls transitioning to men. So obviously, this girl is going to become stronger, she's going to be faster. She's going to be better able to wrestle than she was as a girl with no testosterone.
JEFFY: Right. And the argument also from the other parents that are suing the school board is that, hey, she is taking this medicine. That's making her into a boy. We don't want her wrestling.
PAT: And in Texas, you can take -- you can compete if you've been prescribed the testosterone by a doctor, and she was.
JEFFY: Correct. And there are several -- there are three or four other things on that list that the Wrestling Association says it's okay as long as it's prescribed and that would not be okay if it was not prescribed, for sure.
STU: And the reason for that, by the way, quickly, steroids are like standard treatment for a lot of illnesses.
PAT: Yes. Right.
STU: If you break out in a rash or if you have -- if you're sick in any number of ways.
STU: One of the first responses is to give you a shot of steroids because, you know, it works. It's pretty effective.
PAT: It reduces swelling, aids in healing. It just -- it calms down infection. I mean, it does a lot of different things. I've taken steroids quite a bit. Because I've been sick lately. And it helps. They help.
STU: A lot.
PAT: So it kind of makes sense that there are certain circumstances under which -- you know, because if you're taking anabolic steroids, that's one thing. But if you're taking steroids that a normal doctor would prescribe for an illness that's a different deal.
JEFFY: Which is pretty much what they were covering when they made the rules, before this.
PAT: Right. So, anyway, Stu heard this interview on the way in by Chris Cuomo. And is it the lawyer representing the other girls in the tournament?
STU: No, this is Ben Ferguson, who is a talk show host. He's a CNN contributor, so he's there to take the evil right-wing side of this argument. Chris Cuomo who purpose or it is I guess to be a journalist. I don't know that for a fact. But it seems like he wants to come off as evenhanded on the show is a straight-out activist on this show.
STU: And the reason is because he's in the middle of his own personal issue with the transgendered argument, which is last week someone tweeted to him -- when talking about the transgendered issue, what do you tell a 12-year-old girl who doesn't want to see a man's unit in the locker room?
So a 12-year-old girl is in the locker room, someone changing next to them, takes down their pants and has a guy junk. Right? He's got guy junk.
What do you tell that 12-year-old girl? His response was, I wonder if she is the problem.
PAT: Good gosh.
STU: Or her overprotective and intolerant dad. Teach tolerance. That was his response.
PAT: That's unbelievable.
STU: Now, look, that's unbelievable, to put that on the 12-year-old girl.
PAT: Unbelievable response.
STU: A 12-year-old girl is not equipped to -- even if this were the most logical thing in the world, is not equipped to make that determination. She's going to be interested in what she's interested in at that age. That's going to be -- it's a moment -- it's an era of discovery, right. And so that is not something that you would necessarily want -- that's why they have separation.
Because honestly, with this standard, why bother with two different bathrooms? Why bother with two different locker rooms for any reason? Why bother? Why not just be tolerant of male genitalia all the time for 12-year-old girls? Why is it only when someone else outside of their decision-making process makes a decision they identify a different way. Right? Someone else has done that, that doesn't affect the 12-year-old girl in this scenario. She hasn't made any judgment, well, I identify that person as a female, therefore the junk that I'm looking at is not male. That's not her determination. It's someone else's determination. So that is -- it's an absurd argument on its face.
But he got so much heat for that tweet, blaming the 12-year-old girl and her intolerant dad of not being accepting of penises in the locker room, which is essentially what he said: You should be tolerant of the penis.
That was the word they used. He got so much heat for that. He's now in, I've locked myself in the corner, and I'm going to be defensive on this point no matter what. Which, it brings out the best in Chris Cuomo. Because he's now so desperate to prove that this wasn't a mistake, he'll say anything.
PAT: Yeah. Listen to this.
VOICE: What's your take on the tournament, my friend?
VOICE: Well, first off, I think this -- take the transgendered issue out of it for a second. If you are taking testosterone, which is a performance-enhancing drug in sports, you shouldn't be able to wrestle.
PAT: Correct. There you go.
VOICE: And this gave a completely unfair advantage to this participant. You can talk about that whether you are in your age-group or in your sex group that are associated with. If you're taking something that is performance enhancing, you're not a real champion. You cheated and you won.
Now, the state I think has some blame for this, by having it where they're even allowing these testosterones to be used if they're prescribed by a doctor. That's where I think the big fix probably needs to come.
STU: Stop for a second. Because this is -- so, first of all, this is his first response. Take the emotion and the politics out of the transgendered issue for a second. And we'll just talk about you how ridiculous it is that a girl who is taking heavy amounts of testosterone for a girl, right? Would be able to compete at all. So taking out the transgendered issue, it's still wrong. So he's already won the argument at this point, right?
JEFFY: Right. Right.
STU: But not with Chris Cuomo who can't possibly accept this.
CHRIS: If there was acceptance, we wouldn't have had this issue because this kid would be wrestling against boys.
PAT: Oh, good gosh.
STU: So here's his argument: So Chris, he falls back to --
PAT: If there were acceptance.
STU: I don't know what level we're going to fall back to on this. It's going to be hard to keep track of. But he falls back to, if there was -- if we taught acceptance, this wouldn't be an issue because she would be able to wrestle the boys like she wants to.
PAT: And in that eventuality, we wouldn't be talking about the story at all because she would have lost in the first round, and it would be over.
STU: Right. That's true.
PAT: It would be over.
STU: That's true. However -- however, we still would be talking about the issue. Why?
Because in a liberal state, let's say California, there would be a -- it would go the opposite way. You would have a boy who was transforming to be a girl and wanted to identify as a girl and then went into the girl's division and then destroyed all the girls. So the issue would still exist, it would just be in a liberal state and the opposite way. So he's completely wrong there to say the issue goes away if -- if we, quote, unquote, teach acceptance. The issue still exists, it's just on the opposite side.
VOICE: We know. And for those as you're learning about -- just so people know.
VOICE: Here's the thing.
VOICE: But hold on, Ben. Let's just clarify one thing: The science, you have to be careful about.
STU: This is argument two.
PAT: The science now.
VOICE: The amount of hormone that this kid is given is the minimum standard they can give to replicate the output of a boy.
STU: Okay. Stop. There's so much there.
JEFFY: Oh, my gosh.
PAT: Does he know the amount she's being given?
STU: First of all -- yes. So that was one of his big arguments in this. I assume he knows it because he quotes -- he kept saying, you have to look it up. You have to look it up. So, again, that's a bad assumption on my part.
PAT: Look it up, Jeffy. See how much testosterone --
STU: However, it's not the minimum amount that a girl would have, right? It's actually way more than a girl would have, which is what makes the transition happen.
PAT: Yes. Way more. It's the minimum amount for a boy.
STU: For a boy. Now, let's just say that that's true. So even if his argument is true, it's still cheating --
PAT: So even if his argument is true, it's still cheating.
STU: It still would be cheating as the girl. So his point is, well, then they should allow him -- her -- him to wrestle with the boys, right? Because he wants -- she identifies as a man. So we should think that she's a man. We should allow her to wrestle with the boys. Because she's not getting -- his point there is, he's not getting so much -- she's not getting so much more testosterone than the boy would normally have. So she's not a superhuman boy, she's just a boy, right? First of all, his wording is interesting there. The amount to replicate a boy.
If she's a boy, you do not need to replicate the boy.
If you're replicating something, you're replicating it because it's not actually happening. Therefore, your whole scientific argument is flawed. The thing that you're saying you want to happen isn't happening.
STU: She is not a boy. So if she was a boy, you would not need to replicate it.
PAT: Yeah, if you need to talk about science, what is she scientifically? She's a girl.
STU: She's a girl.
PAT: She's had no surgery. There's nothing been changed on her body. She's a girl. So if you want to talk science, she's a girl. And then -- so it's unfair for the girl to be getting testosterone, when the other girls aren't getting it.
STU: Right. Exactly. Now, his point seems to be, what he wants to happen is that she wrestles against the boys and then loses because she is getting only the appropriate level for a boy of testosterone.
Again, it's a ridiculous argument in and of itself. But if you're going -- even if you're going to entertain it, the point is, getting performance-enhancing drugs -- it's not to say that you let everyone come to the same level of testosterone. The point is, you don't get additional testosterone as to what you have naturally. That's the point of the rule. It's enhancing. Whether you think it's enhancing it only to equal, it's not the point. The point is, you don't enhance it to what you have naturally.
STU: She has very little naturally. And they're enhancing it to get a higher level, regardless of what level.
PAT: And all we're talking about here is -- the level of the other competitors is what we should be talking about, not the level of the boys.
STU: Yes. Right.
PAT: Because is it unfair for her to have beaten all these girls whose level of testosterone is ridiculous?
VOICE: Kids are going to be superhuman -- it's the opposite.
PAT: No, it's not the opposite.
VOICE: Scientifically, that is the outcome. If you look and do the research as I have, you'll see that.
STU: Oh, God.
PAT: What a condescending ass.
STU: Yes. Remember, this is a guy who is in full standing in the Douche Hall of Fame. And this is him showing off why he's there.
STU: And, by the way, on Pat and Stu today, a vote on Chris Cuomo as the Grand Nozzle after this interview. Because he deserves it from Harry Reid.
VOICE: If this state allowed this kid to wrestle against boys, which is what he wants, we wouldn't be talking about this case right now.
STU: Right. This case. You would be talking about a different case in a different state that went the opposite way. The issue would not go away at all based on that. You would just be arguing the opposite side of it.
VOICE: But you also have to look at, there has to be a standard. And I think it's not insane or crazy for a state to say that you compete with the sex that's on your birth certificate. That's what I would refer to as logical. It is illogical to somehow imply that this kid is a victim because he decided to do something or change something and therefore you change the entire sport around it. That is the part that I think many people are sitting here and saying, "Hey, if you want to compete in a sport, period, then you cannot be taking performance-enhancing drugs and do it." But to say that we should change the entire way that sports is done because of one person and their decision to do something, that is unrealistic.
But the premise is flawed. Because the logic requires --
STU: We got to come back. We're not going to have time to get it --
VOICE: I disagree. That's why we're having a discussion. That transgender doesn't count. But it does count, and that's why we're having this bigger debate about what you allow trans kids to have access to and what you don't.
PAT: He goes on to say that she identifies as a girl.
STU: Yeah, but we have to come back and play -- because that part is unbelievable as well.
STU: His scientific argument is that she identifies. Well, that's not science.
PAT: That's not science. Now you're talking feelings. You're not talking science.
STU: As you said, they're replicating it. She's identifying. You're laying it out -- subconsciously, you're saying the truth. You can't help yourself. You can't help yourself. You keep saying the truth.
PAT: I can identify as a gerbil, if I want to, but I'm not. I'm not one. And I won't fit into the little thing with the wheel that goes -- spins around and around. So...
STU: Right. And any other circumstance, this argument would be completely bizarre.