RADIOSeptember 02, 2024

EXPLAINED: What happens if Trump wins from PRISON?

Special counsel Jack Smith has revived his classified documents case against Donald Trump. But why is he doing this so close to the election? Will the Supreme Court's immunity ruling apply here? And what would happen if Trump wins the election from prison? Former U.S. DoJ Assistant Attorney General and Center for Renewing America senior fellow Jeff Clark joins Glenn to break it all down: “I would not be surprised if [this judge] sentenced President Trump to prison.” But he also explains why he believes the American people will see through the Left’s attempt to “criminalize politics” and realize that we have become a banana republic.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Jeff Clark, he is a senior fellow at the center for renewing America. And he knows this case, quite well.

The case against Trump. The latest indictment filed against special counsel Jack Smith.

Jeff, I have been trying to understand this story.

It's very complex. Can you just break it down for dummies, like me?

JEFF: Glenn, thanks for having me.

And, you know, you're definitely underestimating yourself, Glenn, but hopefully I can help the audience to understand the case.

GLENN: Okay.

JEFF: So, look, obviously this case was filed a way back.

And it's resulted in several important decisions, first as the district court, and then in the DC circuit, holding that President Trump was not immune.

You know, they tried to last that argument out of the lower courts, especially with this ridiculous SEAL team six hypothetical.

The idea that President Trump could order Seal Team Six to assassinate his political rivals.

And so the argument goes. You know, because that would not make any sense.

Therefore, he can't have any form of immunity. And I always thought that hypothetical was totally ridiculous, when the case eventually reached the Supreme Court. In a case called Trump v. United States, which was decided by the Supreme Court. Six to three, most of it, on July 1st of this year.

GLENN: Right.

JEFF: They gave that argument, short trip too. And they held, consistent with the fact, that every branch of government, has some form of immunity. That the president of the United States, and the one that was just applied to Donald Trump, it was applied to all presidents of the United States. Have to have, you know, a set of immunities. And the immunities they decided that he had, were basically a -- in a trichotomy.

So the first tier is that the president exercises his core executive powers.

You know, the things that are at the heart of being president. He is absolutely immune from those.

Full stop. Then second, per anything else that he does. Which is not within his core powers.

So that would include things like speaking, using the president's bully pulpit.

He's immune to the outer boundaries of his office. As long as it has the nexus to his official duties, which a lot of things do. And that there he has presumptive immunity. And in order to overcome it, you have to show that it would really make no impingement or inroads into the executive power. You know, to -- to be able to pierce that immunity. So that's also a very strong form of immunity.

GLENN: But that would be something like he's saying, you know, WWE is real. And somebody sues him. And says, it's not real.

It has nothing to do with the presidency. Right?

JEFF: Exactly right. So it certainly -- to my mind, let's take the speech, that he gave, you know, outside the -- the White House. On January 6th. He was clearly talking about matters of public concern, which the president can express himself on. And I think that that is presumptively immune. And I think to tell a president that he could not set out his views about an election, would be an inroads into the presidency. And therefore, he would also be immune for that.

GLENN: Yeah.

JEFF: So the left category, and the trichotomy is a category for which a president would not be immune, Glenn. That's the category of -- of an unofficial act. An act in a private capacity.

And so, after the Supreme Court's decision on July 1st, you know, it -- it kind of goes down each step. It steps down to the Court of Appeals level.

And they remand it back to the district court to Judge Chutkan.

And then Judge Chutkan started to set proceedings. More -- more on that in a minute.

And then what's ultimately come, once she now has jurisdiction back in the case, is that Jack Smith was off to the side, working with an entirely different grand jury, and he got this superseding indictment that came out yesterday.

And in -- in a phrase, what that indictment is, you know, new indictment. Meet the old indictment. You know, it's just the same as that old indictment.

He's just reformulated to try to make it consistent with and fit everything into the third box.

The box of everything President Trump did. That he had indicted before.

The first time. Is actually -- as opposed to a set of official acts.

And therefore, Jack Smith argues, he's not immune.

GLENN: So are they doing this, to smear him yet again. So late in the campaign.

Or is this a plan just in case he wins, they think this will keep him out of office?

JEFF: I think, Glenn, that they're doing it for all of those reasons. Right? Because they absolutely want to block him any way they can.
So this is election interference. There's no way you should be issuing a new indictment like this, using a new grand jury.

This close to a major presidential election. Especially --

GLENN: Correct.

JEFF: And it also shows me that this was being concealed. So what happens is that the court was told.

Because it was ready to go. Trying to set deadlines to try to march back toward a trial.

And Jack Smith made a filing. The last couple of weeks. Saying, no. No. No. Hold on. I need more time.

We're doing consultations inside the Justice Department.

Well, I'm sure they were doing consultations inside the Justice Department. But that's not the real reason. It's now clear, that the real reason is that he was actually in secret grand jury proceedings, getting this superseding indictment.

GLENN: Jeez.

JEFF: And the media, right? The media has been all over, watching the DC courthouse.

I mean, back in the real height of this, a year ago, you know, no one could walk into the courthouse, even if it was for an entirely different reason.

And not have the media report X, Y, Z. You know, this person went in. They must be going to the grand jury. Or there was speculation. But for this proceeding, for some reason, it surprised someone.

All the mainstream media, purported to say, well, Jack Smith was just consulting inside the Justice Department.

I think that that was essentially running a cover story for the fact that they were conveniently not -- purporting not to watch the courthouse.

Because they would have seen the prosecutors, regularly going to the grand jury to get this new indictment. And yet there was entire radio silence on that, until the surprise of yesterday.

GLENN: So what is supposedly new in this one, that changes the ground?

JEFF: It's not. It's essentially just a reformulation, right?

So the original indictment started out by saying, you know, Donald Trump, president of United States. You know, from -- from these dates, to candidate Trump.

So everything has been reframed. In the light of trying to fit it into the third box of being a private unofficial act.

GLENN: Person.

JEFF: Yeah. And otherwise, it's the same. It's the same four counts. There are -- even, you know, particularly remarkable to me, Glenn. Is not just that they have the -- trying to repackage the allegations, right? To go against Trump in his private capacity.

But the fact that two of the allegations were to this statute -- 28. I'm sorry. 18USC1512.

And that statute went to the Supreme Court, also this past term, involving the January 6ers. And the Supreme Court decided that -- that 1512C2, about obstruction with official proceeding, which I'm sure you and many of our your listeners would have heard of. You know, a statute, that really, they stretched to try to apply to January 6th. Even though they didn't. The Supreme Court held, that it did not apply to the January 6ers. And it remanded.

So, you know, Jack Smith has never said aye. He's still using 1512. Many commentators thought that after the Supreme Court's Fischer decision, that's the one about 1512C2, that he would drop the 1512 counts. And he would just go with the conspiracy counts.

Two conspiracy counts. There's 118USC371, conspiracy to defraud the US.

And then the second conspiracy count is a conspiracy against civil rights. But, no. He's using exactly the same four counts that he used before.

That's why I say, you know, the new indictment is really the same as the old indictment.

GLENN: I have to tell you, I don't think the Rosenbergs went through this kind of trial and tribulation. That Donald Trump. I've never seen anybody treated like they treat Donald Trump.

Never. What -- what the courts have done to him, what the prosecutors have done to him, in these cherry-picked courthouses and districts is absolutely obscene.

And I -- I would love to them your point of view, Jeff. I think they will put him in jail in September.

JEFF: Well, I'm actually, Glenn, making preparations to go up there, to be in Judge Merchan's court in Manhattan, on September 18th if the sentencing goes forward.

Look, two days before that time, on September 16th, Judge Merchan is supposed to issue his decision about whether the Supreme Court's immunity decision, Trump v. the US, that I've been talking about.

Whether that essentially requires a new trial to be granted. And I don't see how it couldn't possibly -- you know, you could come to any other conclusion, to the fact that it requires a new trial. Because President Trump is immune for his official acts. And there's even, in addition to the three tiers of immunity that I've described to you.

The Supreme Court created a new exclusionary rule, and said that, in terms of liberation inside the executive branch, are -- are protected. And they cannot be presented in court, as evidence against the president. And so the Alvin Bragg prosecution, it presented precisely such prohibited evidence. It had Hope Hicks in the Oval Office, talking to the president. And testifying about various things.

The jury heard that. And you can't unring that bell. They produced a verdict, based on hearing that evidence.

Alvin Bragg is trying to argue. Oh, it's all harmless error. Right?

We would have gotten that, even if we hadn't presented that evidence. Well, who knows? No one knows that. And I don't believe it. And so he needs a new trial.

So I predict, sadly, you know, for the same reasons you say that the lawfare is just so intense and unprecedented against President Trump. And it really is a dagger at the heart of the republic, that I bet, you know, Judge Merchan is going to go ahead and deny the unite-based motion for a new trial. And then he will do the sentencing. And I actually would not be surprised if he sentenced President Trump, to prison.

And maybe he tries to, you know, soften it a little bit at the end. Just by saying, this sentence wouldn't begin to run until after the election, or something like that.

Or if you really wanted to go full bore, right? You can say, no, you're remanded into custody immediately. Or you're remanded into home confinement immediately. He has a lot of different options.

GLENN: Oh, my gosh. I have to tell you, I think the American people will lose their mind.

Both Republican and Democrat. And especially I think independents. I think there are a lot of people who are sick of this. And they will see, this is a banana republic.

JEFF: I agree. It's already gotten to a banana republic level in terms of the level of lawfare directed at President Trump, at myself.

GLENN: Right.

JEFF: You know, at Steve Bannon, and Peter Navarro. You know, all of my folks down in Georgia, with Fani Willis.

GLENN: It's crazy.

JEFF: Now they have a new case out in Arizona, which they're trying to press on. You know, it's relentless.

It really is something that is trying to criminalize politics. And criminalize the ordinary operations of laughter. And pretend that Donald Trump was the chief executive of the United States.

That he -- you know, some unprecedented threat, that requires a level of treatment, that no one has ever gotten before, in the history of our country.

Just take, Glenn, the Mar-a-Lago raid. Right?

What did they do with Vice President Pence and President Biden? They negotiated an agreement to go and search through their -- their homes, right? But did President Trump get that treatment?

No. He got a jackbooted raid. With armed agents. That wouldn't even show the president's lawyer, Christina Bobb at the time, the warrant initially, until she basically had to pry it out of him.

GLENN: Would you hold on just a second, Jeff?

Because I have to take a 60-second break. And then when we come back, I would just like to know, what happens if he go to jail? Can he be president of the United States?

How would that work? Does Secret Service go with him?

What happens? We'll talk about that in 60 seconds. First, getting poor sleep is not just an inconvenience. It absolutely ruins your day, for one thing. That's -- you know, that's not the worst part. It's also terrible for your health. And it can be very dangerous. If you've ever fallen asleep, during driving. Because you have such a terrible night of sleep. Or you've fallen asleep in a meeting. And you're like, I've got to stay awake. You're screaming at yourself, and you just can't do it.

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(music)
From the Center for Renewing America, he's the senior fellow there. Also, former US DOJ Assistant Attorney General Jeff Clark is with us.

So if they put him in jail, can a president be in jail?

If he -- let's say he wins the election. But he's in jail. What happens?

JEFF: So there are two periods, right? One would be a period, prior to inauguration. There to answer your question, right before the break.

You know, the Secret Service would still protect him.

And, you know, indeed, Alvin Bragg had been talking to the New York jail system, about trying to make accommodations for that.

And then in the period after he's inaugurated, then I think all of the -- any kind of imprisonment would have to be ended for suspended.

It would be what lawyers call preempted by the Constitution since he would be the dully elected and inaugurated president of the United States.

He can't be kept from exercising those functions by a state conviction.

GLENN: That is absolutely unbelievable.

I mean, I don't think our Founders ever -- they -- I don't think they ever saw something like this happening.

I mean, you know, our -- our checks and balances are so far out of whack. And the administrative state is so strong now.

That, you know, almost anything can happen. It is really crazy. Jeff, thank you. Go ahead.

JEFF: Thank you. Yeah. I was going to say, you're absolutely right. The republic is hanging by a thread at this point. Hopefully Judge Merchan will come to his senses. And I think the Supreme Court is always in the background to make this all come out right, like they did in the Trump immunity case on July 1st.

GLENN: Hmm. Jeff Clark, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

You can follow him on Twitter, @JeffClarkUS. @JeffClarkUS. Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it.

I mean, can you imagine, Stu?

STU: Yeah. I was thinking about that, as you were playing out the situations.

What if -- you putting them in jail, would send a message.

I think, as you pointed out. I think would backfire on them.

Could you see them do House arrest?

So he can't campaign anywhere.

He can't do any rallies. They put an ankle bracelet on him. I don't know. That one, I could see.

Especially if they're losing. I think the more -- the more dire they feel their situation is. The more likely that happens. That he goes to prison.

Because, you know, they will see this as, well, I mean, we've got this other card to play. Why not give it a shot?

We're losing. Right now, I don't think they feel like they're in that situation. I feel like they think they're winning, and why would they shake it up?

GLENN: I have to tell you though, I think if Donald Trump was under House arrest and he couldn't leave his house, first of all, he could do video from his house. I'm sure.

And there would be people like me. You know, I would be willing to take a hiatus and go campaign for the man, if he couldn't campaign himself. And not -- and not because, well, he's a Republican or anything.

Because --

STU: It's wrong.

GLENN: -- this is an American that has been wronged. And we all have to stand up for it.

I mean, they are out of control.

STU: That's going to be fascinating to see.

GLENN: Can you imagine if they win?

Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine how much trouble we're in if they win, Stu.

I mean, everything we've ever talked about, is happening right now.
(music)
As Jeff just said, a republic hangs by a thread. Who is going to rush in and save it?

Well, I will tell you, it will only be good and godly people.

Because it's got to be people of merit, that are trying to find favor in the eyes of God.

And say, we will be a fruitful nation. And we will bear good fruit, otherwise, he will curse us and we will whither on the vine. Quickly.

Zuckerberg Wants to Give You AI “Friends” … To CONTROL You?

Meta and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg has a new goal: to give lonely Americans AI “friends.” But Glenn sounds the alarm: this must NEVER happen! Glenn explains the hidden danger in Zuckerberg’s seemingly kindhearted plan: “AI cannot, must not, and will never be your friend.” Opening that door will only give Meta insane levels of potential for manipulation and control over you.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Let's start with this: Mark Zuckerberg. Good guy. I mean, he brought us Facebook.

And, you know, that is the thing that brought all of us together.

Brought out families together. All the people that we lost touch with.

Oh, the world is so much better now that we have Facebook.

So now, he's got another idea. Could we play the clip of Mark Zuckerberg?

VOICE: There's a stat that I honestly think is crazy. The average American has I think it's fewer than three friends. Three people they consider friends. And the average person has demand for meaningfully more. I think it's 15 friends or something.

I guess there's probably at some point, I'm too busy. I can't deal with more people. But the average person wants more connectivity, connection than they have. So, you know, there's a lot of questions that people ask.

Of stuff like, okay. Is this going to replace kind of in person connections or real life connections?

And my default is that the answer to that is probably no.

I think it -- it -- I think that there are all these things that are better kind of about physical connections, when you can have them.

But the reality is that people just don't have the connection when they feel more alone, a lot of the time, than they would like.

GLENN: Hmm. True.

Now, let me ask you. Is there a time when you don't remember feeling so isolated? When you didn't really feel like I don't have any real friends?

When you didn't -- you had real connections with people, instead of a million connections with people that are your friends, but not really your friends?

Can you think of a time, way back in history?

I mean, probably have to go back to the cavemen, to find a time.

Oh. Before Facebook, and social media!

When we weren't all killing ourself, because we have no meaning.

Now, from the people who brought you kill yourself, because you've been on Facebook too much.

Brings you new AI friends. Oh, this is going to be good.

By the way, you know, that's a crazy stat, I think the average American has, what? Three friends. And they have a capacity for, I don't know. Fifteen or 20. I don't know.

Really think about it right now.

How many true friends, do you have?

How many true friends?

People that when you are down and out, there is nothing -- the whole world is against you!

That that person will actually stand by your side. And go, yeah.

I'm their friend.

And I don't care what you say.

How many? How many do you have?

I think I would count myself lucky if I have three.

Now, I have a lot of consequences.

I have a lot of people who we all think are friends. But as a recovering alcoholic, I've been there.

I've done that. As a recovering alcoholic,
who then also is a conservative and spoke out about the Obama administration, I know who my friends are.
I know who my friends are not.

And I think there's a lot of people that have counterfeit friends.

If you've got. Oh, I've got ten or 15 friends.

Eh.

No, you don't. No, you don't.

I've always grown up thinking, you're lucky, you're lucky, to have three, five, really good friends.

That will walk through anything with you. Do you agree with that, Stu?

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: You've never been there.

STU: For you? Oh, God no. But I'm just saying, generally speaking. No. I think -- I mean, you're describing a great friend. You're describing a really --

GLENN: A real friend.

STU: Yeah. Like someone you know and stick around for multiple decades.

GLENN: Yeah, I have lots of friends. You know what I mean? I have millions of Facebook friends.

STU: Right. Those aren't real.

GLENN: Right. And I have lots of friends. But the ones that are there for you always, no matter what, I have family.

And I have family.

STU: Right.

GLENN: And I have a handful of friends. I would consider you one of those.

STU: Thank you. I would as well.

GLENN: Why?

Remember, I have a drinking problem.

STU: Yeah. A lot of brain cells killed to make that decision.

But I think that you -- yes. I think the only thing that I think I'm drilling down a little bit on to try to understand. When you say, well, I have a lot of friends.

In a way, I think that's what Zuckerberg is talking about.

It's not even necessarily a great friend that you have for multiple decades. And can count on at any time.

Just the mid-level consequences, are drying up for a lot of people.

GLENN: Yeah. And why is that?

Why is that?

Because we don't talk to each other anymore.

STU: Yeah.

GLENN: Because of social media.

You know, when this generation says, I don't know.

I just think it's weird. I'm just now in a bar someplace.

And some stranger comes up to me and wants to strike up a conversation. I'm like, hello, weirdo. I don't know!

You think it's less weird to go online?
When people can fake everything!

Thank you, Mark Zuckerberg.

But no thanks. Okay.

STU: And they're just -- to build up on this point for one second.

There's a study that came out, the last 20 years, of how much time do you spend socializing with the people.

Again, that's not with your best friends.

This is just socializing with anyone, a human.

Every single group. Every single group has massive drops.

GLENN: Massive.

STU: Massive drops. Just give you some examples.

Ages. Fifteen to 24-year-olds. Thirty-five-point down.

In 20 years. 35 percent. So a typical 15-year-old, as compared to what they are, in 2003 and 2025, where were the two measurement years?

They're spending 35 percent less time, with other human beings.

GLENN: Okay. Hang on just a second. Can you please stop distracting me? Because I'm trying to figure out why our kids are killing themselves.

STU: No, it's really hard.

GLENN: It's very hard to figure out.

STU: To understand.

And this is the coup de grâce of this entire study, which is, the typical female pet owner spends more time actively engaged with her pet, than she spends face-to-face contact with her friends of her own species.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

STU: That is unbelievable -- not like you're in the same house as your cat.

Right? No. More face-to-face time with your cat!

GLENN: And I've got news for you. If you think your cat is your friend, wait until you die, and your cat is trapped in the house with you and you have no friends to check. They will eat your face.

STU: They will still have a use for you.

GLENN: Yeah. They will have a use foy.

STU: Not the other way around.

GLENN: Okay. Here's why I'm bringing this up today.

This is a lie, that is going to be sold to you, like crazy. And it's going to be wrapped in a beautiful, shiny package. And it's going to have from Mark Zuckerberg and others like him, on the tag.

They want you to believe, that AI and bots can be your friends.

Will the Conclave Elect a RADICAL Pope to Follow Francis?

The Conclave to elect the Catholic Church’s next Pope has begun. But will the next Pope be “conservative” and orthodox, will he follow in Pope Francis’ footsteps and be more friendly to leftist and globalist ideas, or will he be an “anti-Pope,” as some Catholics are claiming Francis was? Glenn speaks with LifeSiteNews co-founder and CEO, John-Henry Westen, who reviews the most likely candidates for the papacy and why he believes the “anti-Pope” claims against Francis are not ungrounded.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN:

THIS is Why We Don’t Trust the Mainstream Media

A recent New York Times hit piece is a perfect example of why many Americans no longer trust the newspaper. Glenn compares the piece, which criticizes “The MartyrMade Podcast” host Darryl Cooper’s revisionist history, with the New York Times’ own “1619 Project,” written by Nikole Hannah Jones. Glenn disagrees with both people about major historical events. But the Times, with its elitist hypocrisy, pushed Jones’ attempt to frame America as a racist nation since its inception as unquestionable truth. “I’m not defending [Cooper or Jones],” Glenn says. “I’m defending the idea that We the People decide what’s true, and that takes work and curiosity…The minute you let somebody else decide what you’re allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: I want to take on something else that I don't know. Maybe I should just keep my big, fat mouth shut.

Because I think this one will piss off everybody. But it's the truth. There was a story in the New York Times. The podcaster asking for you to side with history's villains. It was in the New York Times. Let me read something.

Darryl Cooper is no scholar. But legions of fans, many on the right, can't seem to resist what he presents as hidden truths.

All of a sudden, everyone was coming for Darryl Cooper. There were the newspaper columnists. The historians. The Jewish groups. Repugnant says the chairman of Yadveshev (phonetic), Israel's Holocaust museum in a statement.

Even the Biden White House released a statement, calling him a Holocaust denier who spreads Nazi propaganda. So it was for a time for Mr. Cooper. One of the most popular podcaster in the country, to do what he does best. Hit record.

In a special on his history program, Martyr Made. Mr. Cooper addressed the controversy, which had exploded out of September 2nd appearance on the Tucker Carlson Show.

The podcast started by the former Fox News host. At first, Mr. Cooper, a gifted historic storyteller, but not a trained historian, defended the claims he had made on Mr. Carlsen's show. One that Winston Churchill was the chief villain of the war. Ridiculous. Not by implication. Adolf Hitler.

The two -- and two, that millions had died in Nazi-controlled Eastern Europe because Nazis had not adequately planned to feed them. Okay. Not true.

He then said, the story goes on to say, I don't know if we retracted some of that stuff. This emotional ventriloquism is part of Mr. Cooper's approach and appeal. On TikTok, a fan praised him as one of the best historians of our time, because he tries to go out of his way, to understand the perspective of everyone involved in a situation.

These critics have probably helped make Mr. Cooper bigger than ever. He's been the most subscribed to history newsletter on Substak. One spot ahead of the evident economic historian, Adam HEP Toos in the wake of the Rogan interview. Martyrmade. Blah, blah, blah.

Okay. So they go on and on and on. To talk about how this just can't stand. I mean, we've got to -- there's got to be some sort of filter. And, you know, Joe Rogan just can't have on, whoever he wants to have on. That's the problem!

Is it? New York Times. Is that the problem?

Hmm, that's really interesting.

Now, let me just look and -- and let me just look in the past here, and see if we've had this exact same problem, with anybody else. Because the person that came to mind was not Darryl Cooper, but Nicole Hannah Jones. Because I think those two are the same coin, and the coin is counterfeit.

Just opposite sides of the same coin. The martyr made podcast spins a tale of grievance and distrust. And it's wrapped in enough fact to keep it plausible.

But there are some facts in there. Okay.

Jones, she did the 1619 Project.

She did the same thing in reverse. Except, I think she's actually worse.

I mean, because I think she made up almost everything in that. She recasts American history. As racist from the very inception of the country.

Neither one of them is telling the whole truth. Neither one of them. Neither wants to, I think. They're both in the business of narrative, and not history.

So am I. But I tried to be fair.

The real problem is not these two.

Honestly, it's the New York Times.

Because in their Sunday styles, write-up on Cooper.

The Times poses as a concerned observer.

Wary of growing influence among the disaffected right.

Why are we disaffected. Why is the right disaffected?

We're disaffected because you have tried to take our country from us.

Everything that we believe. Our history.

Our values. Our traditions. And you've tried to denigrate them. And destroy them, every step of the way.

And you've done them with one lie, right after another.

Okay?

Why are they framing him. Not with facts. But with suspicion.

Not because he's -- dishonest or not dishonest. But because he's popular. They clutch their pearls, because he has an audience. And only the New York Times can have that you audience.

But where that was concern, when they did -- when they gave an audience to Nicole Hannah Jones.

And gave her a Pulitzer for a project now so discredited by the very historians that are now talking about Cooper!

Where was the caution when they declared that 1619, not 1776, was the true founding of the nation? They didn't question her authority. They didn't say, well, she's not a historian. They printed it. In fact, they taught it, and endorsed it. They platformed it in schools!

That's different than anything that Joe Rogan is doing. They platformed it in schools.

So let's be clear. Okay?

I think both Cooper and Jones are wrong.

They may have points worth considering.

But I think that they get it fundamentally wrong, in a few places.

They are looking at facts to sell the story.

And not necessarily reveal the truth.

Now, maybe I'm being too cynical.

But that's the way I see it. And I'm not condemning either one.

I'm condemning all of those on the left, or the right, that are now doing the same thing that the New York Times did with -- with Cooper, but didn't do with Anna Nicole Jones. Only one of those two was lauded by the New York Times, as legitimate. And a necessary corrective, even though, it was all a lie! Made up!

So that's what -- when I'm -- I'm reading that op-ed in the New York Times.

I can't take the -- oh, my gosh. The hypocritical nature of it. Just, blood shoots out of my eyes.

Because that's what the New York Times is actually saying. Don't you little people understand. We must decide what stories are acceptable. Not you!

Not somebody like Joe Rogan. We will decide. Which distortion are his virtuous and which ones are dangerous. Not you.

We get to choose the false prophets that get a column, which -- and which ones are called conspiracy theorists. We, at the New York Times, we in the media!

And athat is the problem! This isn't about the authors. Okay. First Amendment gives him a right to say whatever they want.

You may not like. You don't like it, stop listening.

Well, but other people might listen. Yeah. Well, other people might listen.

Maybe we should pay more attention to our education in our schools. Maybe we should pay more attention, so we don't become somebody that is a dummy, themselves. And are -- because this is the problem!

We don't have a press that exposes lies anymore. We have a press that curates the lies.

I really think this is why I started collecting -- you know, we have now, the third largest collection of founding indictments, in the American journey experience.

Along with David Barton's wall builders.

It is -- it's only behind the national archives. And the library of Congress.

Most people don't know it. Because, you know, we don't talk about it yet.

Beginning in '26. We will be making a big deal out of it.

We also have the largest collection of pilgrim era artifacts and documents in the world.

The largest. So I can tell you what happened in Jamestown in 1619.

I can tell you this, the ship that Hannah HEP Nicole Jones talks about. There were no slaves on that ship.

How do I know?

We have the manifest!

No slaves. Hmm. That seems problematic, doesn't it?

And the Mayflower did not launch a system of slavery.

In fact, they fought against it.

We -- this is so crazy.

What the Pilgrims did against slavery was remarkable.

Remarkable. When a slave shipbuildingsly gave into their port, it was -- slavery was against the law. They called it man stealing.

It was against the law. As soon as the slave came into port. You could smell the slave ship. They knew exactly what it was. They marched and up arrested the captain of the ship.

They put anymore irons. And put him in jail.

And these people, who were already paying 15 percent of everything they make. These poor people.

15 percent of everything they make, to a king they can't be they despise. But they paid it, because they wanted to just stay alive.

They took up a collection from each other. Not outside. From each other.

Got a new captain. Refueled. Restocked the ship. And sent those people. Those slaves back to Africa, so they could be free!

That's who our pilgrims were. Don't believe me? You don't have to take my word for it.
We have the evidence. Please, you know, the longest running treaty with Native Americans happened with our Pilgrims. And you know who broke it? Not the white man. It was the Native Americans! And you know why?

Because after years and years of the Pilgrims and the Native Americans getting along, Christianity was starting to seep into their culture. And they needed to go to war with the tribe. And the war that the way they used to fight it, the Native Americans, it was okay to enslave your enemy.

In fact, you needed to.

You could torture them, after you won!

Just to make a point. And then you would enslave anybody you wanted.

And Christianity said, no. You can't do either one of those things.

And so the native Americans, that were part of this tribe, that were and friends under this treaty, with the Pilgrims. They started telling their chief. You know, we can't do these things.

And the chief got so pissed. Because he was like, we're fighting a war.

We fought it like they always fought it.

That they broke the treaty. Did you know that?

No. They were just horrible. We stole the land.

Ay-yi-yi. Did America live up to its ideals?

No! Has anybody, ever?

Have you? Has the pope? Has anybody really lived up to their ideals all the time?

No! But you have ideals, and that's what matters.

By the way, on the other side, I also happen to own a few original Nazi documents, from the actual perpetrators. I've got documents from the engineer that actually calculated how much Zyklon B it would take to murder a room full of Jews, okay?

It wasn't because they didn't want to -- they didn't have enough food.

This was calculated. I have the final prescription signed by Dr. Mengele, for a thousand liters of lumen that will for the so-called children's hospital. That's how the right was killing the undesirables in the children's hospital.

They didn't do it in a frenzy. It wasn't a riot. It wasn't out of desperation. It was silence out of lab coats, and beauracrats and experts signing off, and the press like the New York Times refusing to say a word about it. The scariest people are not the ones in the streets. They weren't. They were the ones with titles. With offices, with press credentials.

They were the ones with the doctorates.
They were the people who decided what could be published.

Who could be punished. What could be known? What could be said?

And that's the danger that we're staring down, right now. Not from cringe theorists on a podcast. Not even from overzealous academics with a Pulitzer.

But from the institutions that bless one distortion, and condemn the other.

Not based on truth. But based on usefulness.

Is it useful to our side?

I just want you to know. This is my stance on this. and make this very, very clear.

The First Amendment does not exist to protect comfortable speech. It doesn't exist to protect Cooper, as opposed to Jones. It exists to protect both of them!

It protects uncomfortable points of view.

Things you do not like to hear. And disagreement. It protects people who are absolutely wrong, and even those who are lying!

It protects the process, so you can figure it out. There is no licensed priesthood in our country.

You know, that are -- the priesthood of truth-tellers. No official ministry of facts.

That's where countries go wrong. The Times should be exposing both sides of these stories.

Just like I'm doing.

The distortions of the right, and the left.

But instead, they become exactly what they've warned us about.

A newspaper that prints dogma, and not dialogue.

And the real problem here: No.

The real solution here is you. Jefferson warned that a man who reads nothing but newspapers.
Sorry. A man who reads nothing is better informed than a man who only reads the newspaper. Okay? I would say, the newspaper is today's social media.

Man who reads nothing is more well-educated than a man who just only reads social media.

But today we might say, better to be ignorant than confidently misled by trusted media.

They see themselves not as a watch to go. But as a shepherd. And we are the sheep.

So I am not defending either one.

I am defending the idea that we, the people. Not the institutions. Not the elites. Not the New York Times.

Not Joe Rogan.

You decide what's true. And that takes work and that takes curiosity. Maybe the other guy is wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I don't have the whole story either. I don't know.

Look it up. Because the minute you let somebody else decide, what you're allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think!

What Christian Movies Can Learn from Serial Killer Films

Christian movies can learn a whole lot from serial killer murder mysteries, The Daily Wire’s Andrew Klavan tells Glenn. While Christian films tend to have good messages, they don’t often touch on the dark realities of this fallen world we live in – realities that even the Bible addresses through the stories of Cain and Abel and many others. Instead, Klavan argues, he gets more biblical truths out of movies like “Halloween” and “The Silence of the Lambs” and books like “Crime and Punishment” than he does films like “God’s Not Dead.” Klavan tells Glenn how he finds God in the literature of darkness, a topic he further delves into in his new book, “The Kingdom of Cain.”

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Andrew Klavan. Host of the Andrew Klavan program. The Andrew Klavan Show.

How are you, sir?

ANDREW: I'm good. Good to see you.

GLENN: Good to see you. I don't think I've seen you out of your element ever.

ANDREW: Yes, I've been many times to the studio.

GLENN: Have you? Well, they were memorable.

ANDREW: I get this reaction a lot.

GLENN: No. I just love you. I love you. And I got to tell you, the best compliment I could give you, your son is remarkable.

ANDREW: He is remarkable. He is.

GLENN: I hope some day, somebody will say that by my children. Really remarkable.

You and your wife are amazing parents.

ANDREW: Oh, well, thank you.

GLENN: So tell me about the Kingdom of Cain, and talk down to me.

ANDREW: It's a really simple book, and very entertaining, because it's about the movies that we all love.

GLENN: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. He says this. Let me read this to you, Stu, and see if you understand what this is.

STU: The Kingdom of Cain looks at three murders in history, including the first murder. Cain's killing of his brother Abel. And at the art created from imaginative engagement, from those horrific events by artists ranging from Dostoyevsky to Hitchcock. To make beauty out of the world, as it is shot through with evil and injustice and suffering. It is the task, not just of the artist, but Klavan argues of every life rightly lived.

Examining how the transformation occurs in art. Grants us a vision of how it could happen in our life. What is this about?

STU: I don't know what you're missing.

ANDREW: I will tell you, I'm a crime writer. Right? I get this letter all the time. Constantly. It says, you call yourself a Christian.

That part is true, and yet you write about horrific things. You right about murder.

Prostitutes and gangsters, and all this stuff.

Why do you do that?

And the reason is very simple. I believe that God is a central fact of reality. And I believe that any artist who speaks truthfully about reality, will speak about God.

And so what I did. I took three murders. Three very famous murders.

I showed how they inspired works of art. Over and over and over again.

They're -- not just one work of art. But they kept coming back, inspiring other works of art. And how those works of art actually speak about something, that happens to a society, when it begins to lose its faith. As our society has certainly done.

You know, and they chart those works of art, and some of them are like the stupidest little horror movie.

And yet, the guy who is making that horror movie understood what he was talking about.

And can show you. If you go back, for instance, and watch a slasher movie. Like Halloween, which is a very scary movie.

It's actually about the fall of the end of faith. And how it destroys sexual responsibilities.

So it takes place in the suburb. Have you seen it?

GLENN: Wait. Wait. Yeah. I have seen it.

ANDREW: Where there are no moms. And the dads are very weak.

And this knife-wielding crazy man comes back. And basically preys on kids having sex while nobody is watching.

And it's a very, very stark picture. I bet if you asked the director what he was doing, he would tell you that. It's right in the movie, when he see that. But you have to be watching this.

The thing is, these movies are -- not just movies. But novels.

The arts are -- really reveal the conscience of a culture.

GLENN: Yes.

ANDREW: And so taking the way they look at murder, tells us things that are bad about our culture.

But it also tells us about ways we want to go in the future.

The role, for instance, of psychiatrists in -- in these films.

Films. Most of these films are based on murder, committed by Ed Dean in the 1950s, a guy who was constant. Who used to kill women.

Right?

And then dress up in their bodies. Just like in Silence of the Lambs. That inspired Psycho.

It inspired a really good horror movie called the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Even though it's a crazy title. It's actually a good movie. The Silence of the Lambs. All of these movies grow out of that one murder.

And what it's about? It's about confusion. It's about sexual. About gender. You know, we don't see that going around nowadays. In fact, it's everywhere. In fact, these movies were made in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, and '80s and on. And so they were predicting, as art often does, what was going to happen, and explaining why.

GLENN: So do you think Alford Hitchcock knew that this was coming? Or he was just a good storyteller?

ANDREW: You are a good story teller. Who was it? T. S. Eliot said a great poet writes himself, and in writing himself, he writes his time.

And I think that that's what happens. These artists basically bring something out of themselves. But it reveals where we are all are. And it reveals where we are going. If you see where we are, you can tell where we're going.

That's why the book does not just concentrate on the darkness. It actually says. What do you do?

How do you react? Now that you know what's happening. How do you react to those things in a creative, joyful way?

Because this is -- the Bible doesn't say things will be great. The Bible says. Yeah.

GLENN: That's not the main point.

ANDREW: Being crucified. And at the same time, it says, rejoice ever more.

GLENN: Right.

ANDREW: So one of the things that really bothers me about Christian movies.

Is they don't really represent life.

If you do a Christian movie, that has real things in it, you get slammed.

Why would you put it in?

Why was there sex? Why was there murder?

One of the major influences that turned me to Christ, when I was 19 years old. That took three decades to kick in.

But it was reading Crime and Punishment. About an axe murderer. And about a prostitute who basically turns this axe murderer's life around.

If you walked into a Christian bookstore today.

And say, can I have that book about the axe murderer and the hooker? Yeah, they would look at you like you were nuts. Because Dostoyevsky was a great artist and a great Christian.

One of the truly deep and interesting Christians in history.

He revealed something about the philosophies that were rising up at that time.

And that are still with us today. And the philosophies that later became spoken out by Nietzsche. And Nietzsche affected all of the leftist philosophers that you and I have loved so much. And have done so many good things for our survival.

GLENN: So let's pretend somebody didn't read that by Dostoyevsky or whatever his name is.

And tell us the story -- and tell us the story. And exactly what -- what he was teaching.

ANDREW: Well, the idea is God is dead.

And therefore, instead of having this horrible Christian philosophy. That is nice to the poor. And the weak, and has charity. And compassion.

We need strong special men. Like Napoleon, for instance. Who will make their own law.

And this man, in this story. Crime and Punishment says, well, if I can make my own law, I can murder somebody.

And it will be a sin. It won't be wrong.

And then he actually accomplishes this murder.

And finds a way. Oh, wait. I've actually shattered the moral order. And now my life is spiraling out of control.

Now, Nietzsche wrote his philosophy, which is the exact philosophy in his book.

After Dostoyevsky wrote the novel, and then his philosophy inspired two murderers in America, named Leopold and Lowe. This was called the crime of the century. The crime of the 20th century.

GLENN: I don't remember it.

ANDREW: I know, nobody remembers it now, but it was one of the biggest crimes of the century. It inspired countless movies and television shows.

It was two kids, they were -- they were rich, gay Jewish kids in the suburbs.

GLENN: What year?

ANDREW: This is 19 -- I want to say 30 -- 30 or 40.

GLENN: Okay.

ANDREW: Yeah. It was the '30s. I'm sorry.

And they decided, well, we're Superman. Like Nietzsche. They read Nietzsche. And they thought, yes. This is what we want to be.

One of them. We will commit the perfect murder, to show we could do it.

They took a kid at random, who they know, and killed them.

GLENN: This is Rope.

ANDREW: Exactly. Exactly. And Rope became the Hitchcock film. And also inspired Compulsion, which is another movie.

Almost a true movie about it. Pops up again and again.

Two people who said, we will commit the perfect murder. Because we're superior.

If you look for it, you will find it in one story after another.

And it's based on the idea, that there's no God. And therefore, anything is permissible, and strong men have to make the rules.

GLENN: That's one of the best movies out of Hitchcock.

Nobody even knows it. Great movie from Hitchcock. And great movie with Jimmy Stewart and just really -- and disturbing.

ANDREW: Yeah, and written -- the original play was written by the guy who also wrote a play called Gaslight, which is where we get the word gaslighting.

So I talk all about these works of art. These works and movies. And listen, I think it's an entertaining book, Glenn.

GLENN: I love your work. I love your work. Most people, if you don't know who Andrew Klavan is.

You've written movies. I mean, you've written just some thrilling novels.

And novels that have been made into movies. And I'm a huge, huge fan.

But, I mean, you know, you are talking to mice here.

ANDREW: I try to just make it about things that people like and enjoy.

GLENN: Yeah. So what is -- what is the lesson that we learn from -- from all of this?

ANDREW: Well, I think the most important lesson, if I can call it that, in the book. Is that the beauty has something to do with the answer to evil.

You know, one of the things that keeps people from believing in God. They say, there's so much evil in the world.

How can a good God, allow this evil to exist?

And at the end of the book, the last third of the book. Which is a very personal statement about what I do, to basically live joyfully in the world, that I can see is evil.

It ends with looking at the statue of Michelangelo. Which is one of the most beautiful works --

GLENN: Beautiful.

ANDREW: But it think about what it's about, Glenn. It's about a mother with her dead son. It is a world with a dead God. It's the worst movement in human history. And yet Michelangelo, a man, made it beautiful.

And my question at the end of the book, is if a man can take that misery, that suffering, that evil, and turn it into beauty, what can God do with the world that we're living in now?

When he works with the marvel of eternity. And so I work my way to that point, by going to the movies that we watch, the stories that we read.

And why we're so fascinated with murder.

You know, think about try crime. This is what this is about.

STU: Why are we?

ANDREW: Because it is the borderline, where you cannot say, there's something right about this.

It's the place where I suddenly realize that the moral order has its great points, but it also has a very stark --

GLENN: So explain to me. Explain to me why shows like, let's say.

Yellowstone.

Are so satisfying, because you're kind of like -- kind of like seeing that guy taking to the train station.

You know what I mean?

You know that it's wrong. But you're kind of in there. You're kind of like -- you know.

And you feel. At least I do. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people watch. Yeah. That's fine.

I watch it. I don't like the fact that I kind of -- I'm rooting for them.

ANDREW: I think the best art does that to you. I really enjoy this. That actually tells me something about myself, that I don't want to think about.

GLENN: Yeah.

ANDREW: See, a lot of people think art is like a sugar pill, that they used to give you a little lesson in life. A little parable of sorts. I don't think that's what it is at all.

I think it's an experience that you really can't have in your life, that broadens the way you look at life. Broadens your view of humanity. So when you get Christian stories like God Is Not Dead. I don't want to pick on anybody.

GLENN: But you'll pick on them.

ANDREW: I will pick on them. The guy is hit by a car. He says, well, at least he was saved.

I think, really? We can't just say -- you can't call his wife say, and say, this is a sad moment. Let me grieve when people die? We can't say we're horrified by death and afraid?

So I want Christian art that deals with life in a real way.

And shows that people who are afraid. And people who have evil thoughts, and people who want to justify murder. And they -- there are moments when we all sort of think -- but if you go off into a room by yourself and ask, how can I make the perfect world?

Within two minutes, so help me.

You will be committing mass murder in your mind.

Let me see. Well, first, I have to go to rid of these people because these people can't be reformed. You'll wipe them out, right?

So that's who we all are.

When he start to see that. I believe that's actually a layer on top of who we really.

I believe who we really are is who Christ wants us to be. That's the question.

How do you get through that layer?

That's what artists do for us. They show us our true selves.

And lead our conscience to the place we're supposed to go.

GLENN: All right. Our natural soul is who Christ wants us to be.

ANDREW: Right.

GLENN: And we're encapsulated in this flesh. And the natural man is an enemy to that. And it's the battle back and forth.

ANDREW: And that's what art is. That battle. That's where drama comes from. That's where tragedy comes from.

You know, one of the stories I mentioned in the Kingdom of Cain is Macbeth, because it's such a great story about murder.

And it ends with the most beautiful speech about nihilism, about things, nothing makes sense. Nothing is worth anything. Right? Life is a tale told by an idiot. But because you're watching a play, you understand, Shakespeare is not saying that. A guy has detached himself from the moral order is saying that. He's lost the meaning of life, because he's detached himself from the meaning of life.

And so studying murder and writing art about murder. Takes you to the most serious questions about who we are. And who we really are. And what we really want. And how we -- you know, that inner battle that goes on. Which is to me, the source of drama.